Empowering the community!

Awesome! I LOVE this system. I know first hand that moderation is a necessary process for any community site, blog, or podcast, yet it's a difficult and tricky one. I love the fact that you've figured a good way to put this in the hands of the community, and doing so, the impact of the moderation will most likely be more effective and hold more meaning for everyone.

thanks!
-ryan

tech question - how do you give feedback on comments? Maybe I'm overlooking it:) I didn't see a link or anything.

thanks!
-ryan

Others & I have posted comments on the pod link

Very interesting idea, Siona.  I understand from personal experience what some of the motivation behind it is.  As in life, so at Zaadz.  I will be watching how it unfolds.

Hi Ryan,

The system hasn't been implemented for comments yet.  That's still in the works as well as with all the other content on the site (bookmarks, photos, videos, etc.)

~M

thanks, Matthew!:) looking forward to it.

Great work Zaadz team. It's now getting even more addicting to work on this site and we can also distinguish between the good, the bad and the ugly :)

regards
Ameer

As with the sale to Gaiam, something inside me feels very nervous about this.

I don't mean to always be dragging my feet and resisting change, but this feels like a deep reworking of a fundamental kind of “social mathematics” that underlies a site like this, and I'm not so sure that the law of unintended consequences won't rear it's ugly head here.

The technical rational grammer of late-stage capitalism is so deeply ingrained in virtually all of us that I'm concerned that the very act of counting trust and reputation “points” (whatever they are called) will inevitably lead to competition, or commoditization.

So, good luck to all of us with this.

(And is there an option for opting out?)

“Those of you who post content that is appreciated by others develop a better reputation than those who devalue the community, and your better reputation will give you more of a 'say' on the site–that is, your input becomes more heavily weighted as a result, while those members who don't contribute to the communtiy don't have as much of a say.”
How are you going to enforce sanctions against those who would critique the community  - and why would you want to?
No thank you. I'd like to opt out.

is there a page somewhere that we can check our seed stats? good seeds/bad seeds received/sent, etc.?

If you trust a process, you should have no need to micro-manage it.  What is being implied is that there is some sort of failure in way we are communicating with each other.  I seem to be oblivious to it.  Can someone give specifics?

The system being suggested has little to do with any sense of trust.  Instead, it resembles something more like a popularity contest.  Maybe it should be renamed “Beauty Pagent” since there seems to be a need to distinguish between good, bad and ugly. 

The moment it's suggested that a particular kind of voice will be deemphasized is the moment that open dialogue is closed off….unless that is the intention here.  It becomes a way to sustain a bias toward a preferred mindset.  Be the change someone else wishes to see in the world.  Is that where it's heading?

I'd like to opt out of the plan. 

Trust System…or Judgment System?  Sending people bad seeds?  Oh, boy…a can of ugly worms has been opened!  Watch out…    

Ok, basically the Zaadz team and the people who follow the “party line” have the most clout in regulating what is “ok” and “not ok”. Whoever has a larger status (length of membership, amount of friends, etc.) can negatively impact other people's status with more weight than other Zaadz members.

If your Reputation Score falls gets too low (not that this would ever happen to you!), all content you've posted in public areas is “folded”-hidden from users who aren't logged in, and minimized to title only unless clicked by members. Also, your profile becomes visible only to community members.

If your Score really gets bad, you lose the ability to post new content to public areas on the site; content posted on your personal blog, albums, and so on, is excluded from new/hot/search, friends' blogs and notifications. You can still edit any content they you've already created, however, and can reply to messages but not send new ones. And you'll lose your seeds available, so you cannot give feedback.

Essentially, you'll lose your voice.

This might seem like a safeguard against flamers and “bad behavior”, but the real significance of this is that if the “powers that be” do not like what you are saying, they can basically make you “lose your voice”. This is censorship, and censorship is the first step on the road to totalitarianism. In effect, you have created a system of censorship and control disguised as a “friendly rating system” of “trust”. How much more Orwellian can it get? I want nothing to do with this system. I am not a flamer and I respect every individual, but I will not accept other people censoring me because they disagree with me. I might not like what someone else says, but I respect their right to say it. Freedom is a double-edged sword, and you want to have it your way only.

I thought that I joined a community of equals, but apparently some people are more “equal” than others. This system has as much to do with trust as Fox News has to do with truth. Shame on you.

the bad seeds idea seems iffy…but promoting highly virtuous stuff in a community of integrous people seems like a brilliant plan.
Surely people aren't so liberal in their fairness agendas that equal time and attention ought to be given to nonintegrous enterprises as to integrous ones…are they? Like, we wouldn't support the idea of giving Osama bin Laden equal air time to someone like Mother Theresa if we had some free air time to distribute…

Besides, the whole system seems anchored on the belief that this community is better equipped for honesty and integrity than other communities as those are the principal themes which underly the site's purpose! It is a Trust system, precisely because the idea is that users of the site CAN and SHOULD be trusted.

-Rob

Well stated, Lucid.

Hello again people, if you go to Wikipedia and search Censorship + Fascism, you'll find this:

- Control over the public appearance of the regime, also obtained with the deletion of any content that could allow opposition, suspects, or doubts on fascism.

- Constant check of the public opinion as a measuring instrument of concensus.

- Creation of national and local archives in which each citizen was filed and classified depending on his ideas, his habits, his relationship and his eventual shameful acts or situations; in this sense, censorship was used as an instrument for the creation of a state of police.

I understand in a way  the move of the organisation, but I'm a bit uncertain in a way that you are going to “measuring” people. I feel in class again, trying to earn good points. Well, that is not what I strive for.
I start with trust and I know it www. So, it starts with me and nobody else. I have no negative experience here, on the contrary. I deleted one person. It was as simple as that.
Points are the least of my concern. I will not change my attitude, but when I read Lucid, I have to say she has a point.
Team, you have to give reflection if this initiative was a good thing. I doubt it seriously. It can be felt as contraproductive as some blogs above show.
I would like to read hard prove that this measure as the only possibility. It's not a game of marbles… It ' about people. And leaving everyone of us in personal selfrespect.

Your Zaadz Ambassador.

what Lucid said, and then some.  I choose not to play this game.  How many people have already left because of this?  How do your advertiser$ feel about that?!!

I'm not sure where exactly I stand on the this whole issue….. It sounds great that the community wants to build more trust and have better moderation of activties, but I expect that we still get to voice out our opinions.
Zaadz is great because we learn ,love and care about our world and  unite in our diversity and live in our similarties…well lets see what the future unfolds :)

This will be interesting to watch and participate in.  I do like the concept, andI think that the 'good and bad seeds' will help promote more kind words all around.  
Thoughts, ideas and words contain Energy.  When Zaadz encourages the propagation of more positive thoughts and words, the Vibrational level increases.   I'm sure that dishonesty is *not* encouraged, writing positive things, even though it may contradict your true feelings/thoughts just to gain more seeds.   But instead of a comment being derogatory, the commenter may find a way to deliver it from a place of honesty and love, without malice.  
–This comment simply my opinion.   Again, I support this initiative, it's creative, fun, and it's intention is from building a positive, loving community.   
Great Luck!!!   =)

Do, or do not. There is no try.

- Yoda

it's a juvenile popularity contest.  it's a classic means of controlling the herd.  it goes against all the reasons I joined zaadz in the first place.  this was supposed to be a place I could be myself and still be accepted, but maybe it never was.  I'll not try to fit in and earn good seeds for proper behavior and avoid bad seeds by playing nice.

it's just too much like in 1984, when the neighbors were made the thought police, so as to control the herd with less expense of energy by those who rule.  Give the people the power to enslave themselves, and to enforce that slavery upon each other.  do you not see how wrong this is?  do you not see the power game in play?  this is not why I came here.

I love the rebellion and the utter clarity of NO popularity contest - doesn't it seem to divide?  And the censorship concerns that have been expressed I believe are TOTALLY valid.  Is it not important to be able to discern for one's own self what is true or not, what resonates or not? 

I know a little bit about some content that has come into question more than once and I sense that this action is in response to that.

That certainly doesn't give a mature respect to the considered spirituality that a lot of Zaadzsters carry here with them. 

So, we will probably be seeing more deletions and, as I was concerned about before but it turned out at the time not to be true, it now appears possible that the powers that be will “delete” those they personally do not like.

Dear Zaadz members, I have a suggestion: If you would like to learn how to defend yourself against fascism, then you might want to read this “defense against the dark arts” manual… It is a book called “The 48 Laws of Power”. Use your preffered search engine and look it up. I hope that you don't fall to the Dark Side of the Force like some people we know… *cough* Zaadz Team *cough*

Here is a small excerpt:

        Law 27: Play on people's need to believe to create a cultlike following

People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.

And remember:

War is Peace
Slavery is Freedom
Ignorance is Strength

Conscious Capitalism? Yeah, mmmkay…

Until I read all these blogs I thought I would remain silent about this and give it some more time BUT…
1. I do believe the intent was good and that there might have been some positive influence (as Risto points out)

2. I don't think the positive can outweigh the negatives (for all the reasons that have been given so far … Lucid's points are valid. 

3. I have already seen a few people who I consider most important key people here say they may probably leave … (that was my first sudden feeling … to leave. Then I decided I love zaadz too much and also wanted to give it a try before deciding)

4. Now …  as I read all these (and my friends blogs and comments elswhere) I have decided to join in on making a vote against this “Trust System”. 
Please Dear Zaadz, I hope there is some reconsideration.  
Much Love & Peace & Trust
BeLynn

I can see having a feedback score on “Ebay” although even that isn't always a very good indication of anything except someone being vindictive.  I, for one, do not want that here at Zaadz.  How can we have bad seeds?  What's a bad seed?  I've seen some tortured people here that blog or respond inappropriately.  Sometimes giving them the love they seem so desperate for doesn't seem to do any good.  How do we really know, though?  A kind comment on an inappropriate blog, some words of encouragement, or even a stern, “c'mon, stop that”, just might get them through another day.  Isn't that what Zaadz is about?  Allowing all thought and opening our hearts to one another?

Dear Zaadz Team, I love you for making this medium of enlightenment and friendship possible. Please stop selling out!!! I suggest that you take the time to read the Tao Te Ching, because I feel that within it you might find your lost soul:

The highest good is not to seek to do good,
but to allow yourself to become it.
The ordinary person seeks to do good things,
and finds that they can not do them continually.

The Master does not force virtue on others,
thus she is able to accomplish her task.
The ordinary person who uses force,
will find that they accomplish nothing.

The kind person acts from the heart,
and accomplishes a multitude of things.
The righteous person acts out of pity,
yet leaves many things undone.
The moral person will act out of duty,
and when no one will respond
will roll up his sleeves and uses force.

When the Tao is forgotten, there is righteousness.
When righteousness is forgotten, there is morality.
When morality is forgotten, there is the law.
The law is the husk of faith,
and trust is the beginning of chaos.

Our basic understandings are not from the Tao
because they come from the depths of our misunderstanding.
The master abides in the fruit and not in the husk.
She dwells in the Tao,
and not with the things that hide it.
This is how she increases in wisdom.

Peace : )

This idea is not for me. I want to op out. I really think Zaadz is making changes for the sake of change and it does nothing to make the communinty more inviting. I thought free speech was really valued here. I will think about options and leaving the community is one of them. Katherine

But not being rated is what I love about Zaads…
I don't feel anyone here on Zaads wants to make judgements about anyone.

Why would I give bad seeds? I've never encoutered one…

Friendstacy is right. This is “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”

Please, Zaads team , think again.

I just got up, and just saw the litany of comments here. I'll be back shortly to respond to each individually, but frankly, I'm a litttle surprised at this shrinking from responsibility. This is empowering you, the community, to determine what you like or don't like. Right now, this power exists–however, it lies wholly in the hands of us at the 'top.'

Lucid? As a 'power that be' (a 'power that is'?) I've played a role in kicking all manner of disrespectful individuals and spammers off the site. The Team just 'disappears' those who come in and harrass others, or who use the site as a grounds for spamming. I believe in this community. I don't think you'll turn it into a popularity contest–and that's CERTAINLY not what this system was meant to become! I'd like to hope that people will use it in the fair and hopeful and inspriation and organizational way in which it was intended… to allow those ideas and concepts the community appreciates to be more easily found, and to empower you to protect the community as a whole against those who don't respect the values we hold.

It's so curious to me what this is bringing up…  but more on that later, I suppose.

Again, though, please recognize that this ability and means to 'censor' you're so concerned about already exists, but it's consolidated in just a few hands. This distributes that responsibility among you. And friendstacy: That note about 'neighbors controlling the herd'?? Goodness. Aren't your neighbors here worthy of more consideration than that?

zaadz admin keeps proving to me that they are here to make money, not to make us happy.  they make lots more money off those who don't question authority, they are easier to control and manipulate and are more likely to buy stuff when they see the ads. 

They don't need us here, they don't want us here.  they certainly don't want anyone questioning their authority.  so now there's a new way of marginalizing those who are different from the rest, to shut us up because what we say might upset someone's nice cozy dreamland.

…and just like when I was a kid on the playground, and just like I said in a recent blog comment regarding the current political situation in the US, I don't want to play a game that's rigged so's I always lose.  how long before someone deletes my comments, my blog?  and can someone please explain to my why I should be afraid of this happening?  oh, that's right, to keep me in line, to force me to play nice.  I'm not that nice, y'all, and I'll not pretend to be because you don't scare me.

Siona,

If it was'nt ment(spelling ??) that way, it certainly was totally mispresented. I still have big doubts.
I take my responsabilty! Yes indeed I do. I would like you to honour that ok? I take it everyday of my live in everything. I take it here.
Like I said, I had one negative, and it was a personal feeling, it was no spam or abusive, and after profound reflection, I deleted.

I strongly hope you reconsider all this.

Siona - how about letting each zaadster to choose whether he wants to use the Trust System or not?
Maybe that way we would accept it and see it's really harmless, or it would be ignored by the community.

What??  so now you're protecting us from terrorists?  did I ask you for such protection?  Oh…. it's for my own good, is it?  I see.

I have appreciated this generally mature community and open forum, while being open-eyed regarding its 'new age' leanings, occasional personality cults and socio-political-commercial struggles.

Like my Buddhist friend and valued peak-oil commentator, Curmudgeon, my initial gestalt of *integral* response was 'this is not something I care to identify with' and to say so long .

Lucid, above, is being just that. My blog was one of the few places to address fascism on this site, and it certainly did not have Zaadz managers in mind. But the implementation of this good-seed, bad-seed system of policy enforcement starkly brings to mind Umberto Eco's NY Review of Books, 1995 missive regarding the looming specter of 'Ur-Fascism':

“Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection.”
 <–i.e.: 'I don't like that, I will just mark him as a Bad Seed>
“Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering's alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.”
<–Eco then goes on to show how popular New Age socialism can, oddly enough,
follow these same patterns in socially coercive ways>
Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference.

Music Attracts,

That was just my point before : has it become so badly ?
I stand for my responsability and my opion in this.

Like everyone else, I'd have to continue to dig into it……..but yeah, I've got reservations……words like “bullying”, “groupthink”, and “socialism” pop up in my brain.

The first chat room I joined was probably in 1998. I've seen just about everything that could happen…….infighting, gang-ups, working the moderator, lying, spamming, posing, posing as someone else to lie to the moderator, envy, threats, friendships lost, charactar defamation, breakdowns, and on and on and on

I tend to think that total free speech and minimal controls work best. Everything seems to get worked out……

When I first read the details of this thread. I cringed… then I scrolled down. I am very grateful that there are some on here who also have the same trepidations. I was on zaadz under another nick. I had to remove that nick for very personal reasons. One instance stands out during that former name. A gent disagreed with me in a forum. It was ok to disagree with me, we can't all see the same value in our judgments. But immediately following his disagreement with me, he removed me from his friends list. I thought that a bit sad, now that type of individual can proclaim that I am a bad seed if we don't agree. That is sad, I don't wish to be a part of a merit system that is based on other people's bias. Now if someone who is atheist (I feel even they are valid) can see my profile. Then turn around and decide they don't like my religious system. then in turn proclaim me to be a bad seed. This is scary stuff. Why do we always (humans) feel the need to fix things that don't line up with our individual ideology. This  idea has tremendous potential for abuse.

ps instead of dreaming up more curve balls. maybe admin could do something useful like adding zaadz to the spell-checker! *evil grin*

Hmmm… “new age socialism” with Ur-Fascist leanings. Interesting. I've seen certain new-agers in action (not here, but IRL), and I've experienced the bitter fruit born of their seed, and so what Music Attracts says above, is not really difficult to imagine.

I'm fairly new and I've already been called a “death squad war monger neocon” and asked to leave!!

The old chat room I was referring to was “Slate” via the MSN site…….I remember when they added “stars”….they handed out stars to certain posters!! That just made everything WORSE! Outside politics is tough enough to deal with………..throw in INNER politics and oh boy!

Ha ha ha Fascism!??  the first recorded case of democratic fascism,,I'm happy to be a part of it ;)

Oh my.

Okay. A bit of history. Those of us on the team have been waiting for a good year or so to get something like this in place. Again, we're the ones who have the sole power of arbitration. We're the “deciders.” It's a big task for a small support crew (right, ~Matthew? Right, Jodi? Right, Rommel? :) and giving all of you more of a voice and a participatory role in deciding the direction you'd like the community to go felt more than reasonable. We certainly didn't plan and code this overnight; it wasn't because “something happened.” It's been in the works for a while and, well, we finally finished the last bits of code. That's about as much as a 'reason' that I can explain.

Ai.

This slight paranoid (and negative!) reaction is  a little heartbreaking. The seeds certainly aren'tt intended, again, to serve as a system of judgment and labeling! They're a means to organize information and content and to help each of you contribute your voice and weight to the space.

And Music Attracts? I remember, vividly, that incident that involved you. I certainly don't think that this sort of consideration will disappear. We'll always still be here to look at special cases; we'll always be able to listen to those who feel they've been unfairly treated.

And frankly, if people start using the 'negative feedback' to express disagreement, we'll have to do something different. I'd like to think all of you (and all of us) are more discerning and mature than that, though; I'd be far more likely to appreciate someone who disagreed with me in a considerate and respectful fashion than someone who pandered to everything I said but did so in an obsequious or thoughless way.

Phew. I suppose I didn't think that the 'negative feedback' would be such a big deal. I didn't really see it as ever being used except in truly egregious cases–this community doesn't seem the type to go about in a scared fashion 'ranking down' content that it doesn't agree with. It's just a means, again, to put that power in your hands, so that you can decide what constitutes an abuse of our terms.

It's funny to me why there's an assumption that people will use the seeds to defend against difference when they're merely meant to mark content that's disrespectful or abusive. Why not assume it can be used in this way? You're all wise and discerning people. You know the difference between disagreement and disrepsect.

Anyway, if you don't ever want to use those seeds, I suppose that's just fine, too.

Siona, I am compelled to add one more comment:

Emptiness is not 'the zero point of the scale'.
It is not a way of 'accepting' or 'rejecting'.

Good Seed - Bad Seed equates into neither communal 'trust' nor 'empowerment'.

PS. This is a wonderful discussion. Thank you all, so much, for weighing in. I get a little puffed up about this place sometimes just because of the quality and nuance of the thought here, and really, if this seed system ends up detracting from that in any way, well, I think I'd be as devastated as anyone else. So please please please let's keep this going.

Siona,

I remember your last sentence.
Like I wrote elsewhere : I know I am in the heart of my Zaadz friends, I need no rating.
So please note I will not participate in this new thing.

Those of us who post in chat rooms are by nature already a little goofy in the head. Let's face
it, it takes a certain type of person to want to do this. I've even seen a good amount of outright
insanity! I don't know if it's best to give posters more power or less……but this sure is an 
interesting conversation!

I'm a little “liberty extreme” so I don't know if I would ever tend to agree with things like this. I 
want liberty to the point where people say “John, are you kidding??”

For instance, I would make it legal to yell “fire” in a crowded movie theater. My yelling “fire” 
doesn't MAKE you freak out and trample others. If I heard someone yell “fire” I would look 
around, use my senses, and maybe slowly walk out. Bottom line is, anything that “empowers”
a group makes me skeptical of losing my individuality.

A system where we can “vote” with a check mark or something that says “Hey guy! good post”
or “gee, that post sucks!”…….I can see that…….but making it MEAN something? Making the
voting have an IMPACT? That's where I'm concerned…….

 

Zaadz banners declare, “We're gonna change the world!” But you cannot change the world without a meaningful plan and action. Gold stars and demerit points or seeds are not the answer. To create a community of unity, harmony and value, why not offer leadership in fostering projects that people can work on - and in - that improve the world? 

Again, I feel very much like “the new guy” so it's not for me to give advice. This is a really great site, filled with great people and great ideas. I can only equate it to something that I know well which would be investing/trading…..

we call it “don't get married to a position”, don't get emotional. If I buy something, and the reason I bought it goes away, I sell…….I don't get emotional, or come up with “reasons” for “sticking it out”. It doesn't make me bad or wrong, it is what it is………and on to the next idea…..

Whether this thing sticks or doesn't it does not take away from the fact that this is one awesome place….

jt

When I read the instructions I was very confused, and then my first feeling was that there was something  off about this system. At the moment I'm quite ambivalent.  As a friend wrote:

How can you truly be creative if you feel that your creations are being judged and someone may come along and give you “negative seeds.?”

As Kiso said:

The system being suggested has little to do with any sense of trust.  Instead, it resembles something more like a popularity contest.

On the one hand I see that it could support Zaadz to become less a 'free for all' that it seems to have become lately rather than how it was in the beginning - specifically for people motivated to support the world and each other - and on the other hand I do not have a good feeling about it.

And it could all sort itself out and be just fine.  I do feel there are people who will actively try to boost their ratings by simply making endless posts and comments. (I think this boosts your rating, yes?). Is quantity a good thing?

As I read about the system, I noticed in myself something happening - my competitive side getting triggered. A thought I had was: what about all those hundreds of posts I've already made, clearly they are not being taken into consideration. I watched this thought and realized what an ego trap this rating thing could be, unless we as a community make a commitment to bringing awareness behind our motivations on whatever we do here.

As you said, Siona - You're all wise and discerning people.

I love that you think this is so. I'm not sure, but I do sense that if we take as a given that someone is wise and discerning, and treat them as if they are, then they often live up to that opinion.

My few bits in this moment.
Sandra

Fee, that was beautiful :)

In reflection, I noticed the responses to this thread to be as diverse as the site should be. We may not all agree on a topic. I'm not so sure that we should all agree. One thing I am glad of, I've seen posts that were borderline against the terms of use. I do have to say this in hindsight, zaadz doesn't seem to be out to get rid of members.

To the new guy who is afraid of being himself. speak your mind with respect and you will have nothing to fear except your own words. Please don't take that the wrong way and think I am blasting your posts. I am being supportive here.

I joined zaadz just a few short months after its initial creation. I've watched it grow. It is an amazing experience. I've not always been on top of things and kept up with the posts or responses to my posts. I must admit my real time life can strain my ability to go on sites and interact with others. I had to kill “BWW” in order to avoid being tracked by me ex. But the date of my so called joining, isn't truly reflective of how long I have been on here. I wish I could have changed the username and url that it was attached to. that would have made it easier for others to know i've been around for a while. I'm getting off track here….

Thank you all for being you
blessed be
Red Dragon

I think flamers and spammers are easily quashed - flamers are rebuked by the community and can (or should be able to) be blocked from personal blogs, pods, etc. and spammer accounts are so obious and overt that I trust Zaadz admins to continue their removal without the community involvement.

Beyond that, the seed thing seems to logically lead to a rather circular contrivance: we might also receive a personal store of full watering-cans and full containers of some rather indiscriminant plant killing poison, with which we might indicate our approval or disapproval of seed givers by distributing one or the other on individual profiles?

We could “sprinkle” one or more watering cans on the profiles of those who we feel distribute seeds wisely. We could spray one of more containers of weed killer on the profiles of those we feel distribute seeds arrogantly or vindictively. This information would serve to cause the seeds distributed by any individual to sprout and bloom or fade into the dirt. In this we way, we would applaud or denounce the good and bad Johnnies wandering about Zaadz. :)

I am one of the original Ambazzadors at Zaadz. My Pod, Spiritual Equilbrium, has always been based on attraction, rather than promotion. It has not been a highly popular pod, as it does not resonate well with many of the mainstream philosophical perspectives here at Zaadz; but then, it is an original (as original as anything might be) inquiry into spiritual matters and does not rely on doctrine or indoctrination. It may be that my ideas strike others as absurd, heretical, or simply dumb. Or it may be that my own writing skills are lacking. I seem to have few, if any, detractors, but I also have few, if any followers.

My point is that bad seeds die a natural death, and good seeds thrive, unless of course your definition of good and bad seeds is contingent upon what kind of garden you prefer. On that point, I will add a line from a poem I wrote many, many years ago: “You are a weed my friend. I would not disgrace you in a vase.”

Seona says I have “a nice little pile of seeds (based on your activity and the length of time you've been on the site).” It might be interesting to see how that formula specifically worked i.e. how many seeds did I get, and how many seeds did someone else get?

In, Stumbling on Happiness, Daniel Gilbert asserts something like, “All acts of communication are an attempt to by one person to conform the mental landscape of the listener to their own.” He explains further that that is true whether we are explaining how to get from 4th and Main to the nearest post-office, or whether we are promoting one presidential nominee over the next. We are offering what we claim to be first-hand knowledge to what will be to someone else, second-hand knowledge. I guess the protection of freedom of speech took that into account?

I am also a photographer and post frequently on Flickr as PhotoSensate. I frequently prune images with little activity. For promotion, I “add” them to groups created by other members (some moderated, some not). Pods are more like elegant forums. Maybe groups, to which blogs, images, videos, etc. might be added would be a nice feature here at Zaadz. In any case, ranking at Flickr is based on Views, Comments, Favorites all of which go into Flickr's formula for Interestingness.

If seeds were used as a way of denoting a Favorite contribution I might be more willing to  applaud. But there are no limits to the number of Favorites I might add at Flickr. True, I have one fan that Favorites everything I post indiscriminately. Why? I have no idea. But if you go look at his collection of Favorites, you see I am not the only one - and mine, like everyone elses, are lost in the forest of images he favorites. Anyway, his favorites mean little to me or anyone else. All of which is to say, bad seeds will use seeds, good or bad, badly, and goods seeds encourgage others through interaction and will use their seeds in a goodly way - and in the final analysis, seeds will be a rather ineffectual, inarticulate cluttering of the Zaadzosphere.

Blezzings to all,

The Most Comical Ambazzador Goodsoul

It's starting already…lol… I had 25 “seeds” this morning, and now I have 24… Ooops… Someone doesn't like me : ( Boo hoo…

Oh, and one more little thing that I just posted over in the Think Tank. Excuse the restatement, but I think it's important.

I know that Zaadz feels safe. This place feels like a haven, an oasis, someplace that can be trusted and secure. Please realize, though, that this isn't an accident. The sanctity of this community is the result of no small amout of behind-the-scenes 'control.' Our team, especially the community support crew, works hard to make sure that those who don't abide by these standards–those who come on and start sending messages to, say, purchase Viagra, or those who come and send harrassing notes to women on the site–are removed. We've never been a community free of censorship… we kick out people who abuse the message system, or who harrass others, or who spam.

And now we're attempting to give you a voice in those decisions, and to give you, the community, some of that responsibility… and you're saying you don't want it, and that you prefer to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.

It's curious to me. :)

Lucid, you can't lose seeds by someone not liking you.  When you use a seed you lose a seed.  You get them back by posting content to zaadz:

1) You get seeds by participating actively on Zaadz
2) Seeds are only good for giving feedback to content and fellow Zaadzsters
3) Good content rises to the top
4) Bad content sinks to the bottom.

That's the gist.

I had 25, then 24, then 25 again. I don't know why or why not. It really doesn't matter. The point is that a system of grading people has nothing to do with trust. Call it how you see it…

My points briefly:

* Like Sandra, this just felt immediately just wrong to me. I am worried because I love zaadz and I do not want to either see it change or see a mass exodus of people I care for. 

* The most important thing for me about zaadz has always been the true, genuine caring of the people for each other. There are so many people here who I value so tremendously. There are fascinating levels of relationships as well. There is so much synchronicity going on - delightful, deep, meaningful. This does not seem to be to be something that will enhance this felling, but rather will detract from it.

* My initial reaction upon reading this new system was one of almost panic. I have felt so safe here before this. Safe to write my blog, to put out my art, to share my thoughts and my feelings, in an environment that has been nurturing and secure.  Suddenly I felt that I would be being judged. Maybe someone will coming, reading my things, look at my art and giving them “negative seeds.” What if I write something someone doesn’t like? What if someone just doesn’t like me? This is an emotional reaction, but it has been very strong. This feels incredibly judgmental to me and forced - as if we are being asked to put a price on friendship, a monetary type value on our interactions with each other.

* I have a number of friends in my list who only have a few friends on their list. They are genuine, wonderful people. Some of them are shy or introverted, they value the connections they make too - they just don’t make as many as some people do. I’m worried about these people. If someone comes here to make a few, special connections will they be forced out by not having enough seeds? What about people who don’t Blog a great deal? Who read other’s work, quietly connecting, learning. Are these people who are not wanted at zaadz? I want them!

* I tend to steer clear of controversy and argument. It is something that is quite easy to do, but what of people who wish to have those sharp, intellectual discussions? Will they feel censored?  I don’t mean people who are truly being obnoxious, spiteful or mean. Of course there must be a way to control that, but does it have to involve the rest of us feeling that all our interactions are being evaluated or purchased? This whole thing is titled with the word “trust,” but the initial feeling to me is exactly the opposite - taking trust away from each other. If I love someone’s  Blog, I want to be able to comment directly and cleanly to that effect. This is something that has always happened here. The feed back is consistent, warm and honest. If I love someone’s Blog  can’t I write saying why, complimenting her on her word usage or the important information she’s found or the way it reminded me of something beautiful? Must I decide if she rates an A, B+, B- C, D or F for what she has done? You can call them Big Love, Good Stuff etc. but they are so clearly a numerical, almost monetary”rating.”

It is just like naming the reading groups in second grade. You can call one group the “Blue Birds” and another the “Robins” it isn’t fooling anyone as to which is the “fast” group and which is the “slow” group. What this is asking us to do is give a grade to our friends and colleges. I’m confused by this … if we only read, but do not comment, have we have given someone a C, by leaving them with no comment at all?

* I, truthfully, have the feeling that I must “spend” my “seeds” carefully. Can I afford to give them to someone I know will get lots  “seeds?” from other places, or do I need to save them and give them to my friends who are shy? People who have only a few other friends and are in danger of being ‘folded?’

* It also seems to me that if someone is really out of line, the “folding” process is going to take far too long and a lot of damage may be done in the interim. I just have the feeling that good, but shy people are going to be hurt by this, but it is not fast enough - something that is truly potentially damaging and dangerous will have a long time to proliferate before it is curbed.

* I didn’t like the feature that showed what everyone was doing all day everyday either and I was able to turn that off. I get the feeling that this is NOT something we can turn off, because it will be affecting us even if we don’t pay attention to it.

* Finally, there is a feeling to this that people should be trying to be noticed for the sake of being noticed. I want to write a Blog when I feel I have something interesting and important to say, not because I want participation points or because I’m afraid that I am going to get “folded” If I don’t produce.

I will read the entire thing again. I will try to form an intellectual opinion. My emotional opinion is one of fear, confusion and a stifling of my natural creativity. I had an interesting sort of wild idea last night. Now I’m not sure It’s safe to post it. I have never felt unsafe before at zaadz. It makes me feel very sad.

Dryad ~ Edwina

Hey Lucid!! Howsabout a knuckle sandwich!? By the way, BEST EYEBROWS EVER! I'm going to give you a seed just for the eyebrows!

So where is the best place for me to post some comedy? I can dig some old stuff up and maybe we can have a laugh…….

This is comedy, enjoy it my friend. There is nothing more entertaining than squrming opinions about reality…lol… Welcome to yourself!

Wait a minute……..is this the boobies thread???

Siona says, “…those who come on and start sending messages to, say, purchase Viagra, or those who come and send harrassing notes to women on the site–are removed. We've never been a community free of censorship… we kick out people who abuse the message system, or who harrass others, or who spam.

And now we're attempting to give you a voice in those decisions, and to give you, the community, some of that responsibility… and you're saying you don't want it, and that you prefer to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.”

Let's not confuse protecting the community from “people who abuse the message system, or who harrass others, or who spam” with rewarding Active members by giving them seed points in their Seed Bank and increasing the potential for more subtle abuse in the form of special interest driven filibuster.

No, it's not… C'mon now Fee, don't stray away from the topic… If this turns into a “hey how you doing” thread then I might as well delete my profile and do whatever it is that I do with my free time. The focus here is to point out the evils of a system that judges and separates people, but if you wanna focus on big ass titties then more power to you… Whatever man!

Hee. Lucid? Fee? Exactly! Welcome to you!

I don't know. This is just a feedback system. Have fun with it; share some seeds, see what happens, and if things start to get weird, well, we'll deal with it. Right?

Right.

Also, I'll be candid. Sure, there's a little-kid part in me that feels the same little fear around being judged, or having my words 'ranked' or my deepest thoughts evaluated. There's a little piece of me that feels the desire to be competitive, and to see what the 'score' of a certain post might be. And it's fascinating to me to watch this reaction in myself. What's that about, Siona? Are you worried about what others think of you? What's so scary about that?

But this system only has as much emotional power as we choose to give it. It need not be fraught with notions of jugment and negativity; it can be seen as a tool for moderation and for protecting the integrity of the community. Or so I'd hope.

Also, Dryad? No one will disappear because they “don't have enough seeds.” Right now, what might happen is that certain offensive content might get folded, so that it's only possible to read by clicking the title. There are an endless number of seeds. Give them all away! See what happens! You'll always be able to get more–just by logging in, or posting, or being here.

You wrote that “there must be a way to control” against those who are mean or spiteful or cruel without involving those who do abide by the values of the community. Is that really the case? Again, we're very, very open to ideas.

And thank you, dear, for your long and brave post.

Hi Siona : ) It's not just a “feedback system”… You go ahead and keep telling yourself and others whatever you want, the fact remains that this system has a calculated objective that was predetermined from up top.. Zaadz has lost a lot of awesome people today, and it's going to keep losing people because of this draconian system of control. The thing that sucks the most is that people like me leaving is exactly what this system is counting on, because you don't want people speaking truthfully and calling the situation for what it really is. You want a shiny happy environment of pacified “conscious consumers” who buy yoga mats and buy books written by overinflated self-obsessed “Zen Masters” who couldn't see satori if it bit them on their rear end. Peace : )

goodsoul: I suppose there is some 'danger' in the special interest driven fillibuster thing. It's true that a small group of people might start conspiring among each other to gain lots of points and thus have a greater say in the community, and if we find out that these sorts of games are occuring, well, we'll have to deal with them. Frankly, I'm not sure whether there'd be *that* much motivation to do so, but yes, it's a possibility.

Still, it seems more fair to me that those of you who are active and involved *do* get more of a say in the community, and that long-standing members should have a bit more authority than someone who's just come in. For instance, I'd want to be more tolerant of someone who's been here for years, say, or who has contributed a great deal of value and love to this space, but who slips up and loses her cool in someone else's comment section, than someone who's just joined the site and posts something offensive. This is the way community works in the real world, no?

Also, this is definitely a work in progress. We'll see how it goes, and take all your repsonses and thoughts and suggestions and see about tweaking and finessing things. That earlier post about making it so that negative feedback can't be anonymous, say, was an excellent recommendation. And we'll make it so negative feedback doesn't apply to individuals, but to content. So keep the recommendations coming… even if they are “make it go away!” :)

Sounds like a lot of people ate some bad seeds for breakfast today!

Personally, I'm looking forward to spreading my seed. … er, seeding the community with my plans…I mean being good and whatnot. :)

I wanted to add that it was funny that this whole thing happened today, as last night I had a total meltdown related to my 'over activity' here on zaadz ( specifically, my pod) -  I feel I have been  out of balance regarding the amount of time I spend commenting and supporting the pod….  that I need more time for myself and life outside Zaadz…

And now these seeds sprout ;-)

I'm confused because usually I take out the seeds………and stems……..

he he he he

Siona - do you really believe all that?  honestly?  can you not see that this is a classic reward/punishment system of controlling people's behavior?  seriously?  you don't get it, why so many people have issue with this?  or do you just not care, because those of us considering leaving because of this issue aren't the good obedient consumers you want in your herd?

I have been totally open and honest here with everyhthing I post at Zaadz, unafraid of being labelled a “bad seed” because this place was supposed to be different.  but it's not different, and instead of addressing any of the valid concerns being raised, you call us paranoid and place the burden of proof on those of us who disagree!  

such a system of rewards and punishments do absolutely nothing but enforce conformist behavior.  it might be good for business, but it's not so good for much of anything else.  if making money is the number one concern of the Zaadz  “powers that be” just admit it, don't lie about it and call me names.  If making money is not the number one concern, then you got some serious explaining to do.  no more spin.  address the concerns, don't blow it off by calling those who raise the concerns dirty names or questioning our state of mental health. 

the people here aren't your ordinary run of the mill believe everything they see on tv sort of people.  we deserve honest answers and respectful discourse, or at the very least, acknowledgment that our concerns are valid.  But no, the issue is closed, the seeds are here, like it or lump it, seems to be your standard reply.  is that your final answer?

Lucid.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but how is this a draconian system of control while our earlier method (in which we, the admins, could run around as we choose and decide who gets to stay and who doesn't) isn't? It concerns me a bit that this tool we've worked on is being met with such suspicion and fear–and that people seem to be assuming that we're doing this to 'control' things. From where I sit, as someone with the control, it feels as though we're handing a good portion of it over, and, oddly, no one wants the responsibility.

And again (though I feel I've said this before) we want dissent! We want people who push edges and speak up and who present alternative points of view. However, we want those who can do so with an attidude of respect, and grace, and sensitivity, and who can differentiate between disagreement and disrespect. And we're hoping that the seed system will be used to enhance this, not to encourage people to conform. I really do believe that the majority of this community does understand the difference, and can make that distinction. And if I'm wrong, well, I suppose we'll have to look for something else.

It seems that fear speaks more loudly than the whisper of loving acceptance.  So be it.  While I readily admit it is nice to know one is appreciated for the words we “speak” in this online community, I question any emphasis given to negative attitudes and postings.  My experience as teacher, mother, manager and one who has lived a few years tells me that building up and emphasizing the good and the beautiful will act as catalyst to continue such building.  Focus on the negative, hurtful or fearful will emphasize the darkness and shadows.  Perhaps one can give a seed of  “big love” to another whose words appear to be fearful or angry or disparaging.  Perhaps love is what that person wants and needs more than any other reaction.

My postings are not wildly popular here but that is not why I am here.  I am here just as I am anywhere you find me…to be a compassionate presence of nonnjudgmental acceptance.  I have eyes that see very clearly but I choose not to focus my attention where it would serve only to feed judgments, impatience, cycnicism and the like.  It is possible, but definitely challenging, to see reality while remaining positive and filled with hope.

Walk in beauty

It's one thing for the administrators to judge cases individually, but it is a whole other thing for the administrators to create a system which encourages people to grade and judge each other based on opinion. This has nothing to do with trust… This reminds me of totalitarian dictatorships in which individuals were encouraged to report the “status” of their peers to the thought police, whether it be their mother, father, best friend, neighbor, or whoever for the “good of the state”…

Siona, did you read my post above in which I quoted the Tao Te Ching? Can you really tell me with a straight face that this is just a simple “feedback system”? I'm not a child, and neither are most of the people here, so why don't we dispense with the surface level BS and speak honestly about these issues of control and hierarchy within the Zaadz system?

I am sure Lucid has a much more clear answer, but I can't resist putting in two more cents worth:

“how is this a draconian system of control while our earlier method (in which we, the admins, could run around as we choose and decide who gets to stay and who doesn't) isn't?”

nobody ever said the other way was not authoritarian and controlling.  NOBODY.  that's not the point.  the point is the new seed reward/punishment system.  that is what we are discussing here.  you want a straw man to knock down, a red herring for us to chase, you'll have to do better than that.  Now answer our concerns, stop with the spin already.

friendstacy: It'll enforce conformist behavior if the community uses it to enforce conformity.

If you chose to give good seeds to people you disagree with (and why wouldn't you do so?) it'll encourage a multiplicity of viewpoints. I'd give you a whole pile of seeds for your alternate opinion, but I'd flag someone who was calling someone names or being abusive. And because this community isn't made up of ordinary run of the mill people, I'm wholly willing to bet that these seeds will be used in this fashion.

You can still say what you want, and you can still be as provocative and radical as you'd like. And you still need to do so in a manner that's respectful and that assumes the best in others… just as we've always intended. The only difference is that it's now those around you–the rest of the community–that helps decide what constitutes respectful and disrespectful behavior, instead of those of us with administrative power.

And I've been totally open and honest here, too. Of course your concerns are crucial. We're listening. You're still here–even though it's hard for me to hear the team being accused of doing this to increase obedience or to somehow make money. We created this for you. And as I wrote above, we've already changed the system based on the feedback–now you can't give 'negative feedback' to people, only content. And negative feedback won't be anonymous; you'll have to explain your reasons for the report.

Ai. The part that hurt the most is the “making money is the number one concern” thing. I've been a member of this site for a long time. This community is my home; this company is my life, and I can say the same for all of us on the team. My interest is in keeping this place alive and thriving and running–and keeping the business capitalized, needless to say, is a big part of that, as without money, the site can't survive. But to say that this outweighs the community itself? I think I'd hate myself if that ever, ever became true. I think I'd have to leave.

Again, if you have better ideas for a moderating system, or to help others find valuable content and to distinguish between what's useful or helpful and what isn't, by all means leave them. We tried hard to make this more than a simple rating system, but if it's still not good enough, well, please let us know what would help.

One of my favorite books is “The Art of Peace” by Morihei Ueshiba. I have the pocket version and I carry it with me most of the time. One of the verses in this book expresses exactly how I feel at this moment:

As soon as you concern yourself with the “good” and “bad” of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you…

Doesn't it come down to whether you trust the existing community or not? I trust this group to use the system in a fashion that maintains the sanctity of this space and that respects and honors the personhood of others here–and in a way that continues to allow for and appreciate difference of opinion. If you don't believe the group is capable of behaving in this way, perhaps there is cause for alarm.

Lucid: Can I say, again, that this has always been in our minds? I'm confused by how it's a “sell out.” We knew when Zaadz started that we, as the moderators, would have to be the protectors of this space–when the community was overrun by visitors from Tribe and the site started filling up with, instead of safe and secure and respectful comments, the sort of content and negativity that wasn't what we were about, we put up the barries and kicked a huge number of them out.

Still, we always imagined that, once our core community grew large enough, we'd be able to trust the group to make sure that new members who came to the site would come with the same respect and high standards we felt were important when it came to communicating with others. This was only intended to assist with that.

Of course you're not children! If you were, well, then I suppose it would be a reward / punishment system–that's how I imagine children would use it. But because you're not, you'll be able  (expected) to use this in a discerning fashion that helps ensure that new members stick to the values they agreed to when they joined up.

After all, opinions and values are not the same. We can have differing opinions, but hold the same values. This site, and this system, is about the latter: we value respect, authenticity, love, compassion, and reverence, and we expect those who join us to uphold those. The seed system was created with the intention of making sure that these values are respected–and that you, the community, are equipped to help with that.  As long as you abide by those principles, you can hold whatever opinion you want… and if you disagree with those values, well, there are many, many other forums online.

Thank you, though, both, for continuing to push and for continuing to make me look at my own edges and motives and beliefs. You've definitely touched some sore spots in my heart. I'm learning.

Hello again Siona : ) First off, I am not labeling or judging you on an individual basis, but what the Zaadz Team is doing is just wrong, no matter how you flip it. I hate to say it, but you seem like the Zaadz administration's Condoleeza Rice : ) Where are the WMD's Siona? Did you guys smoke the yellowcake without me? You have your soft spots in your heart, and more power to you for learning. Seriously, I respect that.

My reality is this: I am not an abstract theory, or an opinion, or a system. I'm not a game. I live and breathe whatever it is people want to call “reality” with every single sub-atomic particle within this ongoing pattern that is “me”. That being said, I refuse to be rated and compromised by people who simply disagree with me. If people have a problem with who I am and what I say, then let them address me directly. If we want to have system based on trust, we have to trust our society to work out these issues individually. If not, then we might as well give up and get ripped at the blackjack tables at the Mirage… I know, I've been there, have you? Oh well, pass the Hennessy…

After all this I still feel not good about it.
I stay. I will blog. I will take part as before
But you haven't convinced me, Siona.
Luckely Gershwin and Lenny came to save me….

Hmm. My first reaction - Nope, not for me!

Lucid. Thank you. Neither am I. And neither we. And again, this isn't meant to make it so that people punish disagreement or reward conformity; rather, it's meant to discourage disrepect and abuse, and to give those who behave generously and who serve to uphold the values of the site more a voice in the moderating system. That's all.

Maybe it is somewhat hard to accept what's always been true–that this site does involve judgment and evaluation. Because how is this system more “wrong” than what we'd been doing before? Our little at the top team-based decisions definitely weren't ideal or perfect, but we did what we felt we needed to in determining who and what belonged here and who didn't.

Anyway, dude. You're judging our system and labelling it bad. “I refuse to be rated and compromised by people who simply disagree with me…” ;)

Seeds, seeds…seeds, indeed.  FROM DEEZ NUTS!!! :p

BRING BIG BROTHER CURMUDGEON BACK!!

“In recent news, president and CEO of Maru-Yama Beverage Intl., Ichimaru, stated in a press conference earlier  today that his company plans to withdraw its support from zaadz due to 'conflicting interests', but also said that he'd stay within the community for the sake of his close friends, monkey-buddies, clandestine assassins, shareholders, and dear customers.  We'll have more on this as it breaks, here, on Satella News Network at 11…back to you, Bill”

And remember, “Nothing says YUM, like Maru-Yama ;9”

(patent pending)

Anyway, dude. You're judging our system and labelling it bad. “I refuse to be rated and compromised by people who simply disagree with me…” ;)

Right, my judgement and opinion is simply out there for people to agree with or not, and that's alright with me. The part that I disagree with is the the fact that people can judge me and silence me to the point that I “lose my voice” and cannot be heard on a general level. If someone disagrees with me, they can simply tune out and go somewhere else, and that's cool. But it's a different story when someone disagrees with my views and labels me as a “bad seed”, which results in other people not having access to my thoughts because my expressions have been censored by people who labeled me without due process. Your system allows whoever to smear anybody because of disagreement without being held accountable for the accusation that degrades the status of the accused. This is a system of “guilty until proven innocent”., and it's more that likely that the accused does not get their fair day in court…. It's just wrong, no matter how you try to justify it.

okay…. just a thought or two here…. after reading this long discussion thread….

I think people are taking the seed thing personally…. it's not about *you* per se… it's about the content – the content is good and deserves a seed, or the content is condescending and bashing other's beliefs (or what-have-you) and deserves a note of “hey, no - not cool” …which is represented by a “bad seed” … it's not calling the *person* a bad seed … the content, the words, the object that has been placed into the community… and I'd actually prefer to fold (not delete, ya notice that?) content that is not in alignment with empowering, inspiring or helping others… There have been some very controversial blog posts that *inspire* powerful conversations to bloom… I would actually give the blog post (the *content*) a seed of “I like it!” because it did exactly what I feel the community is intending… conversations that inspire diversity of thought, mutual respect, and sometimes some firey heart-felt grand-standing.  But, yeah, I kinda like the idea that if someone is posting a lot of blog entries that are degrading another member and the Team hasn't happened to come across it yet… that other members who do happen to find it would be open enough to click a “I don't like this” seed on the content … it brings attention to those who are harming others with their entries.

But to live in fear about this harmless seed system… seems ludicrous – I know who I am and I will NOT let an online social networking categorizing/rating system change that… so what if people don't find my content interesting… oh well… I'm not going to be in the “what's hot” limelight… OH WELL… Will I disappear because of that?  Not even!!!  I'm still gonna do what I used to do and probably even more… and now… if I find content that I think others should read… instead of (or maybe in addition to) cross-posting an entry in my blog, I can now add seeds to something that is genuinely great content that I think others should read.  Now, whether or not enough members agree with that to keep adding more seeds is irrelevant… I cast my vote for something that moved me… and that is what matters to me… I feel good about giving seeds in both directions… when I acknowledge the work of another member (who may not have expected anyone to really connect like that with their entry) …or when I feel as though I am protecting fellow members (gawd I would hope that others out there would have my back too if they saw someone being degrading towards me!).  It's a reciprocal element of *trust* … not “Can I trust this person” ….but really more like, “I trust that this person's content is read-worthy and inspirational” …. There are some “controversial” members out there who like to post their firey perspectives and angst .. and that is just as empowering as the fluffy affirmations that empower people… perspectives, folks, it's all about how *you* choose to see the content, how *you* choose to utilize (or not utilize – you don't HAVE to) the seeds system.

If you don't want to be judged… then don't let it be that for you.  I personally do not choose to let this be a judgment about *me* … but rather my content…. and frankly… I don't think I have the most inspiring stuff that often…. so I am not gonna be a featured content … oh well.  My life is not about the seeds … yeah, their fun… but, I'm coming up on two years of being on Zaadz… and I am not going to let a few negative seeds change how I write, share, or contribute to the site…. I'm gonna have bad days… many of you have seen that…. I hope that if I am completely out of line in my content that fellow members would be brave enough to contribute those “I don't like it” seeds… because we all need a little bit of authentic feedback now and again.  Go ahead…. challenge me to LIVE TO MY HIGHEST POTENTIAL!  I'm ready for it…. and have been living it for the past 10 years!  It only gets better!

****this is my perspective and my stream-of-conscious writing on it… it is what it is… and that's all.

{steps down from soapbox … picks up her bag of seeds and is heading off to plant some love!}

Thought this was interesting…

“To be free of the discriminating is to manifest miraculous awareness–awareness that is miraculously simple, miraculously unadorned.”  - Geoffrey Shugen Arnold

Hmm..

In personal communications with Dave, I suggested that Zaadz needs a Town Hall, and to   consult with members (stakeholders) about what they would like. I presented documentation on what that might be like. Dave agreed it would be good. That was some months ago. It has not been done.I joined because Zaadz said it was going to change the world. Seeds/points are not going to change the world. We need to think about why we are here and get back to our original purpose. 

Lucid: Well, we're definitely still working at it! Someone made the great recommendation that anonymous negative feedback should be made impossible, so if you do have a criticism about someone's behavior, you'll have to explain your reason for being upset with their content. We'll get that in place. And Jake's just made it so that there's no 'negative feedback' on anyone's profiles… all you can do to a person is thank them. Again, if you have any suggestions for making this better, please weigh in.

Personally this feels like a brilliant answer to a question no one asked, like a perfect fix for something that wasn’t broken. 

I mean no disrespect to the Zaadz team and their good intentions but this seems like a bad seed. My intention is to maintain a zero balance of seeds because I prefer a place with the lowly if there must be a hierarchy! So as soon as I find seeds in my bank I'll allow myself to be led to where I should plant them. Tag you're it!

That which is real cannot be threatened.

Personally I'm gonna use the seeds to mark things that I'm 'ATTRACTED' to…it's like channelling energy into something or someone you care for…help it to grow.
It's really no different than posting comments, or giving links to your friends that go to cool content. That's what the good seed thing seems like to me.

I'm not entirely sold on the bad seed idea, but it doesn't bother me that I might receive them…aaaand I don't feel compelled to give them out…

soooooo, in conclusion, the system works great for me…and nobody seems to have any real cause for worry, since the seeds bear no reflection on the quality of person that anyone is…so there's nothing to feel threatened by.

-Rob

Can I just put forth one last bit of perspective? This doesn't need to be that big a deal. Basically, you have the potential to gain an infinite number of seeds–all you need to do is leave a comment like this. You then have the potential to enjoy giving all those seeds away, in the forms of positive feedback and 'thank yous' to others. And, if you wish (as a bonus, perhaps?) you can use these seeds to help moderate the community .

Also, I think I really, really messed up with the 'bad seed' language. All that was meant to convey was the giving of 'negative feedback,' so that abusive content (and oh, we've definitely removed some doozies!) can be folded up and made to feel less welcome.

Doug? Love it. Lets see who can give their seeds away the fastest. ;)

Zaadz invited us here to change the world; giving Brownie points won't do that.

Tigana:  I'm gonna have to openly disagree with that…. the “brownie points” as you so call it… can actually bring attention to blog posts where people do have an announcement about a project that they are working on that is their way, their efforts, to change the world (be it in their own family, be it in their own local community, or be it across the world) … I think there is a strong potential to get viewers to posts like this by giving seeds so that the content is more easily seen by more of the community.  But that's my perspective on how we could choose to use this tool in a positive way.  I know I have actively supported a number of people changing the world in their own unique ways through their blog entries informing me of what they wanted to achieve.

The potential that the seeds hold is what each individual member wants to make of it… choice of perspective.  Where awareness goes energy flows.  I choose to put my awareness towards the positive potential.

I have seen countless ways in which Zaadz is helping empower many of it's members to change the world in many dynamic ways.

I trust the Zaadz development team. ( more about that in my blog) They have brought this community this far, and I am excited to see what these seeds can sprout.  This is still an awesome place and I  am deeply appreciative of what they have created here. I think this new development  is “triggering” emotional responses around peoples issues of trust in general. 

 Why not  just give it a go, and see what happens? I also trust the admin to be supportive of us if this turns out not to work to our community's advantage. Look at the time that is being devoted to  addressing all the voiced concerns here as a beautiful example of that!

Thanks Siona 

I like the perspective that Kelly presented and others that this is no big deal because while this site may appear to be servers and routers with backup batteries and redundant RAID 5 disk arrays it isn’t the point and the content here is not controlled by anything like 000 and 111’s or seeds. The fact is content, if it is truth, beauty, love, will bubble up even if the person who posted it is folded up in disgrace by a mechanical system. If it isn’t then it might come from one with the most glowing Zaadz halo and yet it will not be received.

Sonia, sorry you guys are getting a lot of heat over this feature. OK so it’s just out of the box and it’s slightly controversial but there are a lot of creative people on this site so let’s see if we can take your seeds and maybe morph them into flowers. And most of all have fun!

Enough already.  The money has been spent…the tools are in place…and if we were meant to share in this decision we would have been asked long before it was launched. 

I choose not to participate in the “seeds” for good or ill.  And that is all that is left to us…to choose.  :) 

Thank you Dina,:)


I have chosen too.

Hm. (Looks suspiciously at the list above.) You aren't all posting here just 'coz you're trying to generate more seeds, are you? Look how well this is working. :)

Kidding, kidding.

Really, though. Thank you to everyone who is continuing to speak up; the dialog is great. My fingers are getting a bit weary and I need to take a break, but please keep posting and we'll keep listening and please, let's have fun and play with this and see what happens. (I have a feeling this group will have more trouble trying to give all their seeds away than accumulating them, and I have a feeling that those 'negative feedbacks' won't be used except in the most dire of cases, but if things go all wonky and this turns into something unhelpful or banal, well, we can always change things again.)

A very grateful, and more than a bit humbled, Siona

For me, the future is a blank canvas. This is a system that will create more value for the members of the community by highliting genuine authentic members of the community (vs scammers or spammers), and content that is inspiring others.  We can choose to focus on the 'what ifs' and pretend the zaadz team is out to get you– whatever floats your boat, but I feel at its best, this system will bring better visability to some of the best content on the site.

This isn't about a popularity contest– this is about the community growing, and the zaadz team not being able to be everywhere at once.  I may be a ninja, but I am not omni -present (yet)– working on that one.  ;)

In the meantime, if you guys see someone who is soliciting the community, scamming, spamming,etc, isn't it nice to know you can do something about it?  I think so.

As it was previously said, if people are using the trust system for disagreeing with topics or perspectives, we will have to tweak the system- but what can I say?  We trust you guys as some of the most intelligent, conscious people on the web.

Lets give it a shot– if you see something that inspires you, spread the love, show people you appreciate what they are doing.  If you see someone soliticing the community or spamming, that is what negative feedback is for.  Not to express your personal opinions.

If you see the system is being abused, please let someone from the zaadz team know. :)

Why hasn't Zaadz put an announcement system in place for promotion of good initiatives?
I have seen few ways in which Zaadz is helping empower its members to change the world.

If Zaadz were changing the world, we would not have the time to chat about the very subjective matter of awarding love seeds.. Our world is in great peril and there really isn't time to talk about Brownie points, meta and me, me, me, me.  Even Al Gore doesn't know how to say this to get though to you. 
Wake up!

His Unholiness extends His Inexorable Apologies to the isolated planet  Zaadz for this inexplicable sub-development.

Your time and your code would be better employed in practising the worship of My Multi-Dimensional Being.  Best to throw Me some seeds quick, you measely human worms, to stave off My Hunger while I wait for your pitiful, puny, soft little gray brains to be worthy of My Abyssmal, Bottomless Plate.  Good seeds, bad seeds, deliver them All to Me; all seeds are but merely One More Food Item to Me.  Do make your pathetic offerings immediately or you may contemplate discovering My Dread Probisci in places you would faint to imagine.  My Multitudinous Mandibles will fill your hollow minds with Madness while they mash up your–

Love,
Cthulhu

IA! IA! CTHULHU FHTAGN!

With all due respect, Tigana, Zaadz, and the members of Zaadz do alot to change the world for the better.  I think if you have time to complain about zaadz not doing anything (which I really do not understand), you have time to do something else, eh?  Like give the people who are some 'love seeds'? ;)

*on the soap box*

I've noticed admin being very reserved during this entire thread. I have to applaud the fact that you have not lost your anger. truly you are about being the change. I wish that those attacking admin could see that some (not all) of the posts are just mean spirited designed to pierce the person rather than convince them. Those of you proclaiming zen in one paragraph, then malice in the next, are missing your teachings. I'm not trying to be an ass here, but i've only seen many out of bounds accusations. I don't envy admin or the painful decision to ban disrespectful people. we all can do better. I voiced my trepidations on this topic then hoped to move on. then noticed admin getting painted in the corner and being accused of things that have nothing to do with the fears. This is all according to individual speculation and perception. guess what, I am wrong much of the time. Perhaps some of you could be wrong too? maybe admin had purest of intentions while putting this together? I say let it go, watch it, then if need host a thread on how it is or isn't working. I myself would rather give merit in private email to people. but that is just me.

peace
Red Dragon

Hey guys……

I like what Rob and Lightenup said………I mean, why not just give it a shot? Even for say,.3 or 6 monhts if that's what works…..after all, it is “just” a chat room. I know that people can get attached to their chat rooms especially if they invested a lot of time and effort. I remember when the room I was in for years blew up, and it really sucked. But we can't take it THAT seriously. Ultimately, it's a cool hang out spot.

The seeds thing doesn't seem that threatening. If it does become a tool of satan you guys can always ditch it. You'll find out soon enough if it ends up not being used right. In the meantime, ah, why not give it a shot?

Thanks

jt

Hey all, is it just me, or is it when the scrollbar of your screen becomes miniscule in viewing discourse on certain topics (such as this) it turns into…

Blah blah for, blah blah against, blah blah our point is, blah blah change, blah choice, blah, seeds…

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for change and such, and from the inception blah blah against, but now blah blah choice.  The mods have blah'd hard and blah blah here for a time, like it or blah.

And this blah blah my last blah on this forum. ;p

blah..(peace)

hahaha

Oh how I wish I could have checked “I liked it” for your response

Blah blah for, blah blah against, blah blah our point is, blah blah change, blah choice, blah, seeds…

Thank you for making me smile

ps. am I the only one who noticed the only one who can be “censored” for this thread is the original poster. there isn't an option for folk to say they liked this comment, or so called flag for the comments?

Red Dragon

Uhhuh… Lefleur Leflah Eshkoshka…

Boy this seeds thing has gotten folks riled up. But with all good controversy, it makes us think and answer moral questions. But, it the core issue it raises is:

Are we willing to care for one another adequately?

I don't believe that the ZaadzTeam, or at least Siona who I believe is quite sincere and solid in doing good, had any nefarious intentions. Rather they wanted to solve a practical problem of keeping Zaadz free of junk, spam and other things we don't want here. But obviously the roll out of the seeds program did not adequately address how people would feel about it. Most of us still fear being bashed by other egos, so it's not surprising the way people reacted.

But this reaction implicates the WHOLE ZAADZ COMMUNITY.

Will we, the Zaadzters, take enough consideration and care of one another NOT to need such a program?

What people are really afraid of is that others will not take them sufficiently into account and treat them rightly.

First, we are afraid of the “bad seeds” who will be rude, problematic, etc. If you express yourself openly and positively you may want and expect to be treated with respect and kindness and not have the bad seed ruin your day.

Second, we are afraid others will cast us as the “bad seed” and we will be misunderstood and rejected. Again we are afraid that others will treat us badly.

What we have is a bunch of egos being worried that other egos will not take care of them. Sorry, no other way to slice this one.

And what about some comment or blog that gets YOU riled up? Do you resort to name calling and attacks on the speaker? Or do you engage in a dialogue about the ideas?

Hate to say it, but many Zaadzters are willing attribute bad motives and traits to others they disagree with. Good ideas, critical insights, critique of social and spiritual trends are often met with attacks on the writers; not a constructive dialogue about the content of the blog or pod or a willingness to see a different viewpoint or opinion.

So let's think about what we have created O bright and shiny ones. We should be the change we want our Zaadz world to be. 

I got half way through the comments then came upon Siona's response where she equated not liking this idea with not wanting to take responsibility. EXCUSE ME?????  Siona, this is the second time Zaadz has had a new development that received a fair share of criticism and in my opinion your disagreement with the feedback comes off a bit defensive.  This whole seed bank idea wreaks of popularity contests and judgement.  It is completely SUBJECTIVE. How is not wanting to play that game shirking responsibility?  Once again I will keep an open mind. These are some of my first thoughts on the topic. 

Jesus, am I really the only person here whose reaction to this news was, “I GOTTA GET ME SOME OF THEM BAD SEEDS!”? I've never really participated in much of anything at Zaadz - too much earnest, scary utopianism for my cynical nature - but now, suddenly, I have an incentive: bad seeds! What do they look like, what do they taste like, what will they do to me if I eat them? Can I put them in my homebrew? Are they bad in the sense that they won't germinate, or is it a more existential badness: if sprouted, they will grow into monster killer weeds that will take over the world? Are they like dragons' teeth, which grow into soldiers if planted? How objectionable do I have to be to get some? Being mean is no fun. What if I just cuss up a storm? I like to cuss! Whatever it takes, I'll do it. Bad-seed me, y'all! Goddamn.

Nay good lass, rid me of my seeds for I need not care. Sometimes I use zaadz as my little personal escapism, to work shit out in my own head (as it were), which has no value whatsoever to the community as a whole, yet at other times I may have something of value, but you say my 'rep' is going to suffer for such? well there is less shouting and aggression in this house because I vent sometimes on here, so if my rep suffers for me not ranting at a family member so be it… but it for sure most definitely promotes prejudices, and obviously this sort of biased nature is not conducive to creating a better community… surely if you want to change the world, you must try to think outside of it, and not use it's biased principles as a guide, imho, but wtf do I know ;) Einstein said, “Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” the most influential figure of the 20th century also said “God does not play dice”… yet you seem to want to?…. but still who cares it a make a no difference to me, peace and love, and love and peace to you anyway…

ok guys pls dont kill me but i really cant read all of ur writings just need simple HELP with these points… i just went to robyns site n says i have 5 points to give her n then says

Big Love
good stuff
thanks

so which one has how many points (i guess love has d most - but how does it work…
also it says on mine i have 74 points… how? what did i do to get them… someone gave me? who? n how can someone give me 74 points n i can give only 5 points to robyn….  pls can someone tell  me… 

^.^

Dave…

Talk dirty to me , I mean go ahead and cuss at me, and I will give you all 84 of my seeds and I will make them BAD seeds!!!  Mmmmm.BAD seeds…yummy yummy good.

Mimi?

I'm sorry for sounding defensive! Apologies, and thank you for that reflection. I suppose all that's been bothering me is the judgment that we shouldn't judge, or the judgment that judging is bad, when the very existing of Zaadz is, in no small way, the result of such judgment. What's wrong with judging? :)

Mimi?

I'm sorry for sounding defensive! Apologies, and thank you for that reflection. I suppose all that's been bothering me is the judgment that we shouldn't judge, or the judgment that judging is bad, when the very existing of Zaadz is, in no small way, the result of such judgment. What's wrong with judging? :)

PS…  oooopppssss… scoozi guys i just found this link… will read it… 

PPS… hey mimi….  what r these bad seeds ur talking about…  i thought its only good… at least what i saw on robyns page….. 

PPPS… hey i c it on urs too… oh on matthews also…  n kelly's… so only our friends… right…  sec… hold on… oh wow…  its on everyones page….  its fun…  but wait… whats d difference between this n shout out….  hold on again….  ok i get it… so with shout out u can c it even if ur not loged in n this thanks thing only u can c if u log on… correct….  but isnt it kind of d same thing… oh well…. 

^.^

Dave- Do whatever you gotta do, but please, don't tase me, bro!

Well now, some serious opinions.  Healthy debate.  There are so many comments I enjoyed reading that I can't begin to remember them.

Prior to the purchase of Zaadz by Gaiam, many Zaadsters posted angry speculation.  I was one of the people who kept telling everyone to wait and see, because I felt the intentions of management were good.  Until now, I haven't seen anything negative happen to the site and I am hoping this is not the big negative thing.

I do believe in giving new ideas room to grow.  I did post on my blog that I had reservations and concerns.  I still do.  I have learned to ignore people who are abusive to me, send suggestive content, etc.  I had hoped that we would all learn to monitor ourselves and act like adults.  I don't think that's always the case, though.  Personally, I distrust anything that removes responsibility from the individual (and no, Sionna, I didn't like your comment about us not wanting to take responsibility but I'll let it go because I'm sure this isn't an easy thing for you either) and creates a system of judgement.  We are judged enough in life.  My understanding of this is that people who only want to share a little and do not wish to participate heavily will lose their voice.  That is my concern.  I'm a grown woman and can deal with anyone who is annoying by ignoring them or, if I choose, restating my opinion in a way they better understand.  And, Zaadz management was good to me early on when I did have a problem with someone.  So I'm not “blaming” management.

Also, nothing on the internet is sacred.  Your name is out there.  The world sees what you express.  Reality.

Perhaps what I disliked most was the way the seed system was described.  It was lengthy, implied we were now in a contest, and also that people who are favored have a stronger voice.  I'll tell you now that there are people, some on my friends list - and that will now change - who constantly post content that is similar to Chicken Little and the Sky is Falling and they receive a huge number of comments in their favor.  Now there is a popularity contest.  They have provided a space for followers, not leaders.  Their posts are vacant and always create a sense of doom and gloom.  I now ignore them.  And my posts are probably not popular, but that's me and I'm sticking to my story.  But I don't berate anyone and it is unfortunate that others do.  Regardless of why this new seed system was put into place, it just smells funny.  That doesn't mean it won't be good.  That doesn't mean I'm going to leave Zaadz.  I like it here.  What it does mean is that my radar is up and I will be paying attention to what impact this has.  I may or may not participate.  I haven't decided. 

I may post further on my blog about upcoming thoughts regarding the seed thing.  That's my right to do so.   Change is usually difficult for a group that has  found a certain level of comfort.  One can not have as large a group as Zaadz and keep it “zen” and without boisterous opinions.  So be it.

But if management asks for our opinions on something that impacts us as a group, I absolutely do not want to be considered as shirking my responsibility because I disagree or feel that the explanation of a system could have been better.  And as for free speech, well I think we all lost that a long time ago in the world, not at Zaadz.  It is the compassion and understanding of a group and its leaders working together that will make for a successful change.

Sionna:  It would be nice if you could cease referring to the leaders of Zaadz as the “top”.  I'm sure you mean well but it does come across as a bit condescending. 

I hope the seed program is successful and turns out to be but a minor bump in the road for all of us.  I like to think positively and use energy for a good purpose so I will watch and evaluate periodically.  Make no mistake, however, Zaadz is here to make money.  If they weren't, we wouldn't have a place this big to roam around in.  It works both ways.  Without us, Zaadz is non-existent.  Without Zaadz, our collective voice is non-existent - at least in this forum.  So perhaps we could all work together and figure out how to get the seed thing resolved.  Let's not become what we complain about.

Sionna:  I know your heart is in a good place and that  you have worked very hard toward a successful community, but please do realize that with so many voices, a large amount of them will disagree and will not do it quietly.  We, the people, change the world.  The problem is, many of us seem to like to bitch well before we ask questions.  So let's work toward asking the right questions and finding the answers that best fit the forum.

And…..I thought Kiso's first comments were the closest thing to good questioning as anything here.  Much to think about.

Blessings to all…

It would certainly be a great shame if an organization that has the power to do great good and really change the world settled for something far less. Life is not all iPods and beach parties, and an army of - how many Zaadzsters, 100,000? - certainly has the potential to achieve great things and *change the world*.

Or not.

No change, no planet. 

And Dave, I am still waiting  to see what you will do with the Town Hall project. I saved the research I did for that for you, and your messages. You wrote, “I think if you have time to complain about zaadz not doing anything (which I really do not understand), you have time to do something else, eh?” Did you forget, Dave? 

ok guys i read this FAQ so will post there but i just wonna say i have 60 points now so i lost 14…. not sure if its cuz i gave some love to a few people so if i understood correctly it decreases or something or some of u gave me those bad points mimi mantioned but just wonna say plsssssssssss dont give me those bad points just cuz im a bit stupid for these things to understand but i love games n fun so will get it at some point… k…  but always know love u all regardless of good or bad points u give me ^.^

This little discussion is so cute! I really like what you are all saying and I would just like to point out that my mother taught me that it's impolite to point at people.

On the bright side, look what the Nielsen ratings did for Prime-Time…

BM

I am grateful for the elimination of the “bad seeds” option.  However, I would be comfortable with a flagging option so that we could anonymously leave some droppings to flag a posting or person who is overly hostile and belligerent. 

Beyond that, I gave away my 25 seeds and, sadly, I haven't received any.  So, I'm seedless as a summer grape. 

Peace,

Earon

I am ambivalent about this.  I've read all the posts.  I didn't think much about it at first.  Quickly scanned the instructions, then sprinkled around a few excess seeds to those who have made my life better through Zaadz.  It felt empty doing it, no one knows who's showering them with these little tokens.  Each of them already knows how I feel about them.

My blogs I write for myself - infrequently.  They don't get read all that much usually.  I rarely but sometimes read other's blogs.  Enjoy them but it's a luxury.  I think the comments made in response are more meaningful than 5 star rating systems.  You know who likes or who disagrees.  I never thought of blogs as a popularity vehicle but I think some people do.

I've always gravitated to pods.  The first ones were energized for some time by The Secret media frenzy.  I met some good people that way and one or more outlaws.  Yep, there are outlaws around but like bad dogs, one learns to keep their distance and control access.  I suspected at first that the “seeds” were because of a little bit of controversy in a very rough and tumble place where no one's coddled.  We learn from such experiences well.

I suspect what Siona can't say is simply that “seeds” are an automated computerized management tool to produce a quick and easy hot sheet for the emergency response teams to become more efficient.  If so, it is like a citizen's secret police.  I guess that comes with becoming a community large enough to be difficult to monitor for abuse, or is it really, difficult I mean?  I think most “bad” stuff gets back to the Admins but I don't think this tool is going to work, not really.  Course, I could be wrong about it but … it reminds me of high school cliques, work or business world cliques.  There are cliques here too, already, this will divide and separate us more and I think that is what grates on most who have spoken up against it.  Most of us appreciate our freedom to flow and go where we want, led by our inner being, our highest spirit to the content for our momentary expansion, growth, joy and good.

It was the Shout-Out Wall and Friend Status line, which I've come to appreciate, that alerted me to give this seed thing a second look.   It is one of those widgets that drew its own fair share of criticism, along with the activity tracker (which I continue to feel ambivalent about).  What I like about Zaadz is that it's like a giant virtual Glass Bead Game.  The best opinions aren't based outside the self.  I don't need anyone else to tell me what to think, what is of value, what to despise.  No rating system required.  In a dangerous world most of us learn to take care of ourselves pretty well and develop our own methods of discerning what's right for us and what to run from.

Freedom includes the freedom to ignore what we don't like.  I didn't panic when Gaia bought Zaadz.  I didn't panic when the widgets appeared.  I could care less whether I have or get seeds.  But it subtly did affect my behavior this morning.  I would have prefered to be posting content in my Living Metaphysics pod that scattering those seeds around, encouraged by the powers that be not to hoard them.  I felt like I'd been enlisted, I was enlisted, subtly prodded to act, until the questioners caused me to pause and then spend a good part of my day here reading.

The things we fear most seldom happen.  Good intentions may not have broad enough perspective.  The best lessons I've learned in the year I've been here at Zaadz is to focus on my own core self and second to know all is connected.  It is the strongest contrast that often holds the best lessons.  No homogenization is possible when authenticity and personal perspective guide.

How do you all do it? Must be speed readers or something.

I'll go along with the flow…no clue what's at the heart, though.

Earon, I agree there still needs to be some system of flagging.  Seed it or weed it? ;)

Eh, I now get to understand all this tgalk about seeds. However, it looks like I don't care.
I continue doing my stuff. I'm always here and will keep here. No doubt about that.
I think even before the 'Seeds stuff', I've always sprinkled them and attained others to plant too! - I This is just the exposing the system but it has always been there:)

SO let's keep it here together as we transform the world into a better place…always.

Keep on rockin' guyz.

Dear Siona,

I just noticed that the new “Seed Trust”: system has been changed, so that you can't give negative feedback to profiles anymore. I AM SO HAPPY ABOUT THAT. That was really a good move. I want to thank the Zaadz team for being responsive. I was REALLY unhappy with that system, as most of my best friends are incredibly wise people with an incredibly strong tendency to cause people to react (not because they are bad, but because they are HONEST).

I was going to leave if this system stayed in place, so I am really glad it didn't.

I also think that having to give REASONS for your negative feedback on a post is a very good thing. This is a much better system.

Love,

Jessica

I agree with Jackie. Look, I have Zaadz friends who never blog, share ect. I still like them. Otherwise I wound't have sent  an invitation. Bare in mind that you are creating or at least the possibility is there 1st class, 2class and 3 class Zaadsters, depending on.I agree with Jackie on the responsability thing too.

Due to my live as it is, I'm on Zaadz very often. That can change. Sometimes my real live needs attention too:), like today. I still feel Zaadz.

Suggestion : skip the good seeds and make something ” report spam ect” Case solved. I'm not impressed at all by a system whatever, whatever famous name is attached to it if it does'nt work for the people.

I welcome the changes you made allready, but you know my opinion.For me it isn't enough.

My Seed Status:
I am still thinking I’d rather be self-seeding at the moment than ‘supersede’ the new ideas about ‘good and bad’ seed distribution. I’ve given it a go. I’ve distributed all of my seeds. So, like a few others I have “0” seeds to distribute.

I do see that the ‘bad’ seed idea has already changed and that the seed box is for ‘giving thanks’ (thank goodness!) The idea of distributing a negative seed seems contradictory to the ideals of even sowing seeds in the first place.

I am still in a quandry though - despite reading how this all works - that now that I have ‘0’ seeds - my voice is now ‘silenced’ until I provide some content on the site. I can not offer my thanks to anyone else now until I get some seeds….and yet, I am still, nontheless thankful. Of course I could post my thankfulness in emails, shout-outs, etc.

I think of a Quaker Meeting - (a silent type worship) where everyone enters the Meeting…some may stand and speak out of the silence - to offer ministry. The fact that others might not stand and speak doesn’t mean that they are ‘less’ or ‘more’ ‘popular’ to use a phrase that has been going on here within Zaadz.

A completely silent meeting for worship is often ‘very centred’ as we call it - feeling a special spirit among all present.

In the US there is a custom that I witness which was rare (to me at least) where someone standing and offering vocal ministry is ‘Eldered’ - where another stands in silence to suggest that the ‘Eldering’ person is not in harmony with the vocal ministry - or feels moved by the spirit that the person who began the ministry first is not necessarily speaking from the spirit (but perhaps from a personal, political agenda - or what have you).

I found the experience of seeing someone ‘Eldered’ quite profound… the person ‘being eldered’ sat down after a little bit more “rambling” (my term for what I heard). And the “Eldering” Friend then sat down. Later after more silence someone else stood up and felt moved (and I believe from the spirit) to say that the spirit led her to desire to actually hear what the original person wanted to say…..

The interesting thing is - that I felt this way too.

The original person offering the Ministry - which had originally been Eldered - was able to reflect in these moments - then, in the silence - and then he stood and spoke again…it was much more clear - and I truly felt that the spirit had finally gotten through to him and he conveyed his message more clearly.

The ‘seed’ thing - as I said elsewhere to me is more like we are the ‘seeds’ ourselves….and what we should be offering to others is ‘water, nutrients, care’ etc……that’s just my opinion … we are GROWING - a plant that is growing or a seed that is growing doesn’t need more ‘seeds’ - they need love and care.

Hahaha ROTFLMAO!  Wow sometimes you really miss a lot when your on the other side of the world.  What?

It seems to me that a lot of people forget that Zaadz has a Terms of Use Agreement that everyone here “signed”  by being members here.  Bad seeds should only be given out to people who violate that agreement and not for differences in opinion. 

If someone gives you a bad seed they have to explain themselves which encourages more discussion on the matter.  I think that is a good thing as no-one should be booted from this site lightly.  But if it comes down to someone who doesn't follow the Terms of Use i'm all for them being removed.  Having taking part in the removal of a true “bad seed”,  I know that they can sometimes fall through the patient Zaadz team hands and into a crack in the floor.

In the end it does come down to personal responsibility on how you use your seed,  but if you give bad seeds out, be prepared to back yourself up. 

I for one couldn't care less about my seed rating.  And the only power it has over me is the amount I choose to give it.  I do like it, if it helps me find useful posts about topics I'm searching, but I know it can do nothing to stop me from reading as many different views or opinions as I choose, and make my own decisions.

I'm giving good seeds to this post based on the amount of discussion and different views it has provided on this topic.

With Love to you all!
John

Apologies in advance - as there seem to be 3 main areas to add our opinions on this new Trust System, I will probably be repeating myself ( no, not in order to gain more seeds, truly!!). Apologies also if I have missed some of the updates on changes to how the system works or if I have misunderstood how it does, in fact, work.

I have a very particular issue about these seeds, and it concerns my Diving Deeper writing workshop pod and how we as a community on that pod comment on creative work.  I'll come to this in a minute

After re-reading the instructions several times ( I guess that is what you mean about sages, if you can understand them quickly then you must be a sage!), it seemed to be less of a big deal than when I first read them. and I suspect once the hoo haa has settled down, things will more or less carry on as per usual ( apart from the Diving Deeper issue below).

I remembered in the early days 'checking on how many views' my profile had… it made me feel good. Right now I can't remember the last time I checked, I just stopped, it took to much time, I had better things to do here, and at some point of course I realised that how many people viewed my profile meant NOTHING. The comments on my blogs meant something - and the emails I got directly meant something ( to me at least ). i.e. the actual, human interaction, the words shared, the time someone took to read a blog or share what they thought, this all lands over with me as LOVE.

Piles of seeds or numbers of views? I dunno. I think after a while it will fall into the background.

But do have a few things to say  generally - I feel that we as a community should have been notified of this new change. Maybe we were, maybe I missed it. It feels like a big one, bigger than the shout outs etc. I suspect this is one of the reasons so many are upset.

Also, the fact that there did not seem to be an immediate place to talk about this…. it was not possible to comment on the instructions. I just noticed at the bottom  there is a direction to a discussion board - which I just took a look at and I actually don't know if it was there originally, was it? Anyway, it is a bit of a mess in so far as it does not have the full on dialogue that is going on the Team Blog.  OH. I've just read this thread on Think Tank and I see that the team have apologized for not being clear on where to discuss this issue. The 'dicussion board' however, seems not nearly as active as here or the ThinkTank thread so it's still confusing.

I am sure some of the 'emotional responses' came out of feeling helpless  - that this “Thing” had been done all of a sudden and we could not talk about It. For some reason the whole issue of sponsors felt like it was handled better,  I remember feeling 'part' of the decision making ( where they would be, top, side, how big etc), even if I wasn't, it felt that way.

When I make changes to my pod, I always put a little announcement out warning people.

Ok, next.
This bit on the instructions:
If someone's Reputation Score falls gets too low, all content they've posted in public areas is “folded”—hidden from users who aren't logged in, and minimized to title only unless clicked by members. Also, their profile becomes visible only to community members.

If someone's Score really gets bad, they lose the ability to post new content to public areas on the site; content posted on their blog, albums, and so on, is excluded from new/hot/search, friends' blogs and notifications. They can still edit any content they they've already created, however, and can reply to messages but not send new ones. And they'll lose your seeds available, so they cannot give feedback.

Essentially, they'll lose their voice.

I feel this could have been worded differently or explained better, or something.  I'm sure it's been clarified on the threads ( I've not read all of them ). I know people here who do not post much, do not blog and yet are shining lights in my life and I am forever grateful to zaadz for bringing into my life, they continue to work 'behind the scenes' as it were, if not prominently on zaadz.  I guess the only way around this is to make sure these people get all our “Big Love” vote.

Next: and this is my biggest concern.

It's about our community and mission on the Diving Deeper pod. According to the Trust System Instructions,
you can give these seeds to other members in the form of positive or negative feedback on blog entries, photos, discussion board posts, comments, mail messages, and member profiles.

So far, I have not seen here on the pod any “I liked it” or “Flag for Review” links that I see are now on blogs. I believe they are not implemented yet, but will be. According to the instructions, it seems we will be able to 'rate' postings on Diving Deeper. I and my moderators and indeed all the active members of the pod have spent a huge amount of time refining the system of commenting on our creative work. If you are interested, please read this thread, On Giving Constructive Criticism, which has a link in it to the On Commenting thread which also should be read.

Here is an excerpt - I believe they are are useful even if we are commenting on 'non-creative' work, i.e. opinion pieces, or anything at all writing here on zaadz, quite frankly:

_______________________

1. Ask yourself:  what is your motivation behind you wanting to comment and the content of that comment? Is it to support the writer you are commenting to, or? [eg to simply bandy about your opinions]


2.  Ask The Writer:

Ask the writer if they are okay with some 'deeper' analysis and commentary on their work.


3. State what works for you in the writing:

There is always something. It's like people, you might really find them awful, but keep taking a look and there will be something to love. Always.

There are many spiritual paths that teach a simple method: place your attention on what works, and what does not work drops away. This has been my experience.

Also, if you begin with something positive, you support the listener to be open to what else you have to share.

4. Ask questions about the writing:

Ask questions rather than make statements about what you don't like or what in your opinion doesn't work. If you feel you don't understand something, or it is confusing or whatever, see if you can frame your impression in the form of a question.

Questions allow the writer to  align with what they themselves are trying to share in their writing, even if they are not consciously aware of what this is.

Statements tend to force our own opinions onto the writer, they actually don't really  tell the writer anything about the writing, only about the person making the statement.

I have always found that questions lead me as a writer to go deeper into what I have written - I ask myself questions: Was I just slap-dash ..? Is there more here for me to open up? Do I really know what I was trying to say or was I caught up in the prettiness of the language? Have I simply assumed the reader will understand something that I want them to understand?

5. Be willing to be wrong

_______________________

There is more - if you are interested please go to the link above ( On Giving Constructive Criticism).


We absolutely do not 'rate' work on Diving Deeper. It goes completely against my method and approach to supporting writers. But we do spend a lot of time commenting and sharing about the work - it's a huge part of the 'workshop' factor of this pod.  If we start 'rating' the creative pieces, I'm worried. Perhaps the rating will be invisible, I'm not too clear on this. Perhaps all it does is make the original writer of the piece get more seeds and the giver less.

But even if it is 'invisible' - it thoroughly concerns me that we add this to our way of approaching the work on Diving Deeper (and I'm sure there are other 'creative' pods that feel the same way, Dryad's Play Pod, for example).

In some ways it makes more sense to 'rate' the comments in Diving Deeper since these are where most of us need to apply more awareness and attention, looking at how we can comment in a way that really supports the writer and the person. And I will try to establish clear guidelines for all the members of Diving Deeper regarding this, (once we come to an agreement about how 'rating' can or cannot serve the pod, specifically).

On occasion someone joins the pod and immediately makes a completely inappropriate posting or comment, and this is really the only time I see where the “Flag for Review” should/could be used. (And I mean truly off, not just someone's moment of disarray. I've usually simply deleted those posts - there have been only about 3 maximum, as far as I can remember).

We have had flare ups on this pod, a few 'sticky' times, but bar none, we as a community have always managed to resolve them with love and further discussion, publicly on the pod itself and via personal email to the people involved. I fear that if we have a link we can hit that sends 'negative' feedback to a comment or post, it will circumvent this wonderful process of dialogue and 'we-ness'. When emotions are high, we react, usually unconsciously. It sometimes takes time and patience to come to a place of greater clarity and love. A link to give 'negative feedback' supports reacting from a place of unconsciousness, to my mind. Yes we can 'make up' for it by emailing, giving 'big love' to make up for the loss of seeds etc etc, but this seems a slightly backward way to handle this.

One thing that came to me that might support NOT being trigger happy with giving seeds or positive or negative feedback is that it be mandatory to explain yourself. Johns post above seems to imply that this is already so for 'negative' feedback - if so this is great. I feel it should also be part of the 'giving good' feedback/seed process.

Thanks everyone, who read this far.

Love, Sandra

Oh this is so juicy…

To look thru this through integral eyes… and seeing what systems are running us!

Is your type dominating your engagement - like me (a 7, always positive and excited about change!), or a 6 -fearful and cautious, or an aggressive 8.

Tony Robbins says that people have a default emotional reaction… what one is running you?

Even just thru shadow - if this is pressing a button… celebrate - oh joy. Growth is awakening something. Is it soul print shadow (contracting away from spirit), emergent shadow (hiding from the light or brightness of future development to come within you) or is it submerged shadow (the bits that you repressed, cut off and denied from childhood).

Play a game with me - read through these comments looking for greens dislike of heirachy; etc…

Note the 4th order polarisation “I will not play!” Ask yourself if you can be with this system, like others in your life you don't like, and just allow it… or at least to inquire into the pain that it's bringing up - herein lies the growth :-)

Note the feminine desire for connection and fears of being rejected

It's simply delicious!

A buffet of shadow work and personal transformation… you have gifted us with the “seeds” of growth!

BRING IT ON ;-)

Even tho I go “oh but will they like me?” ANd then laugh at myself for being so third order!

Gosh this shadow work likes to be avoided ;-)

Love
Natalie

Don John- Thank you for posting that link.
One thing I wanted to suggest was just that - that a link to the user agreement might be posted in an obvious place.
I'm pretty sure no one is trying to suppress free thought here. I mean, look at this discussion, just for starters.
I would vote for a “flag as inappropriate” option, and I love the seeds. I love giving them away to all the people I appreciate here, and I love being able to do it anonymously.
No one else sees your “seed bag” - it isn't a popularity contest unless it is one in your own heart.
And all you have to do to opt out is not participate.

some questions:
apparently lots of people liked what I posted yesterday, I tried getting rid of all my seeds by deleting photos and blog posts, and then there were 20 new seeds in my pot this morning.  but now it's 19.  I been robbed, y'all!  by a lowdown sneaky coward too afraid to disagree with me openly and discuss this matter to my face.

soooo… what good is criticism if they can't do it to my face?  How am I to learn from it?  Same with praise, what good is anonymous praise?  I have already discussed the negatives.  Someone please try to explain anything positive that might come from having such a system?  Or is it “all in good fun” just so long as the ones being made fun of aren't us?  I still feel marginalized, as though  my opinion no longer counts here because I'm not part of the majority…  oddly enough, I am seeing much more honest criticism of this seed thing than praise.

The economics of the democracy.

The symbolic represtentation of reputation, virtue, and work in the form of currency.

There seems to be some confusion about how you gain and lose seeds.  You lose seeds by using them.  If you give a seed away, by voting for the kind of content you'd like to see more often, your seed is planted there, and you've lost it.  You gain seeds by posting content.  Now, I'm not sure (Jake would know), but you may also be able to lose seeds by removing content.  That would make sense since you gain them by adding.  So, perhaps that's why you saw a depletion of seeds, friendstacy.  But, you do not lose seeds by people giving you “bad” seeds.  As was mentioned above, we've taken away the ability to give negative feedback on profiles anyway.

Princess, I hope this answers your questions.  If you have more questions about how the seed system works, Jake said he'd be answering them here.  Please use that thread to inquire about the workings of the system, not to form opinions about it.  If you'd like your opinion to be heard and changes to be made, the best place is the Thinktank.

Thank you, ~Matthew. Yes, it's a little like 'spending' them: you can spend a seed by giving someone postive feedback, or spend a seed by flagging something to be reviewed.

And the more seeds you gain (by posting and participating) the more seeds you can give away. It's a pretty abundant system.

rapunzel? There's now no way to give 'negative feedback' to a person / profile (all you can do is shower them with seeds), and there's a 'flag for review' option on posts and other pieces of content. With any luck a blocking system will serve as a substitute for any stronger moderation that might need to happen.

This site feels like such a microcosm of the world as a whole sometimes, which is humbling and a little strange. I think Music Attracts made that observation above–that what's happening outside impacts the lenses and reactions we have in here, so that changes are met with the same eye that's been schooled in the world at large. And I suppose it is difficult transcending those conventions.

Natalie: I think I noted this before, but maybe everytime someone gives feedback we could havea a little mirror pop up. :)

Sandra: Perhaps we could make the seed system in private pods optional? Obviously posts there aren't visible to the larger group, so they shouldn't really need to “bubble to the top,” as we've been putting it, and, too, the fact that private pods usually have sufficient moderation means that the 'flag' option is likely unneccessary. I think it bears consideration.

And goodness. I never imagined this little seed system would, um, push me (us?) to grow quite this much. :)

One more thing….

Jake, who coded all this, just posted his reflections on the response here. Please, please go read. Please.

 I feel very insulted by the way you are wording your messages here Siona and I am very perplexed that you say you don't understand why people are saying what they are…I feel like we are being condescended to and made to feel like we are being silly or foolish…if you really can't understand why people feel this is an Orwellian or fascist or draconian system that really scares me because that is exactly how those things start…tiny measures that the people in power tell others is EMPOWERING them and for THEIR own GOOD, etc…

Some of you people need to seriously relax. This is not Orwellian 1984… please read that book again. This is not censorship. In fact, considering a lot of the above is refered to as flaming and trolling in other communities, I'm surprised many of the 'I feel insulted' or whatnot posts haven't been deleted.

 Look at this anarchy of opinion spawned by touchy new agers! You make extremely delusional comparisons of new features on a website to Thought Police arresting, O'Brian brainwashing and reporgramming in room 101, and finally Winston being shot in the back of the head once he is 'corrected'…. I mean COME ON….

Seriously. Cut it out. You're embarassing yourselves.

I don't feel like I've embarrassed myself.  I provided examples of the things that concerned me, was mindful of my speech, and asked easily answerable questions.

I'm not sure what else can be said.

Howdy lovely people.

I’ve been listening in on this ‘zaadz seeds’ conversation for a while. Usually I don’t get involved in this sort of thing- but I’d like to make a few comments. I’d like to do this in the spirit of giving a ‘voice’ to certain feelings that every one of us have- and not in the spirit of accusation or anger. I can only echo what I feel underlies the arguments here in a calm and reflective manner- and hope that this sort of communication will spread. It is, I think, important to realize that each person here is acting in the way that they perceive as beneficial and unselfish. There is simply a disagreement on what will be beneficial. Let’s not question each other’s motives, but rather seek to resolve our issues through the co-operative dialogue of colleagues.

First, I’d like to look at the root of what’s going on- then address both main points of view.

We desire to ‘be the change’. I really adore this concept. It says right up front that we recognize that to change the world is actually an internal process. It is this process that is so important to this discussion right now.

There are two schools of thought (that I am aware of) on how change is brought about within. I call them the ‘dualistic’ and the ‘wholistic’. Don’t get stuck on the name- though- I just can’t think of anything better this moment. The dualistic goes something like this: there is evil and there is good. We accept the good and reject the evil. The evil goes away and everything gets better. There are different variations, of course. The wholistic goes something like this: good and evil is irrelevant. The process of being rejected creates the image of evil. To repair a torn sheet, sew it together. To repair a fragmented human, bring all her pieces together. To repair a divided community, accept every voice as heart-felt.

I obviously tend to the wholistic method. (Grinning.) I could invent a dozen reasons- but the most important is this. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Basically- judge and be judged. Love and be loved. More complicatedly, to reject something is to reinforce its negative aspects. Ignoring is actually rejection, too. This is a fine pickle to be in, of course. We don’t want to engage with negative or harmful people. We want to get them away from us. And from an individual perspective this seems to be a great idea- why should I have to deal with arseholes, eh? Ah. Change the world by being the change…. that isn’t going to actually happen if we reject the parts of the world that are torn and abused.

I know I talk in long circles. Sorry about that- thanks for bearing with me.

Even internally, when we try to change by rejecting the ‘harmful’ parts of ourselves… does this really work? I don’t think so. Negative behaviour comes from somewhere, always. To address the behaviour- we don’t have to address that cause or the reason ‘we got like that.’ It might help and it might not. But we DO have to recognize the voice within and give it attention. Like this- say I have a temper and I’ve become aware of it. I want to change. So, I try to be nice. But deep down, when I try to be nice, I’m really just repressing my anger. It keeps causing me to feel resentment- which makes me feel even more guilty about my temper. I can’t just toss out anger. It’s there for a reason. So, instead- I stop what I’m doing and ask myself, “Whoa! You’re angry! What’s going on inside that’s making this? Maybe I need to think about the real cause. Maybe I stored this anger up at some point. Maybe thinking about the past won’t help, though. Maybe I have to just accept that I’m angry for being betrayed so many times in the past and that this fear of betrayal is triggering anger now? Something strange happens when you start thinking like this. The next thing you know, the anger is quieter. We still may have to say something about the situation that brought it up- we may have to act on the situation. But the anger goes from being the focus to being the flag that called for awareness- within.

I bring this up because it’s very similar in community. Dealing with each other. Dealing effectively with someone else’s anger is actually quite similar to dealing with our own. We have the tendency to get angry at someone who is angry. We resent their anger. We want to say, “go away!” But we have the option of saying, “Whoa! What’s going on!” They may not want to talk about it. They may blame us, still, but it’s the only thing that even MIGHT work. Being the change, so to speak.

Now, how does this have to do with zaadz and seeds? Everything. The seeds constitute a method of vocalizing judgement- we can either give cudos or crapos. We may accept or reject. The main arguments against the seeds seek to show that this tool will allow people to harm one another by playing out their internal judgements. It is not the ability to judge that is questioned (since we already formulate and vocalize judgements) but rather the focus of that judgement into a tangible process created by the seeds. Just by being there as a process, the seeds beckon us to judge. And to recognize this argument is important. There will certainly - absolutely certainly - be some abusing that goes on. The seeds will provide an avenue for judgement, anger release, projection of our own values on others, etc. It’s a very good point.

I’d like to give voice to the other arguments also. Why create the seeds? Going back to ‘be the change’, we can get a sense of where this is coming from. The seeds provide the opportunity to do harm. To reject. To ignore, even, with the absense of recognition. Yes. But they provide an opportunity to do good, also. Imagine that there is an angry blogger who is ranting against the ‘system’. Imagine that this person is rather disliked and generally ignored. Now imagine that someone comes along and puts a happy face on his blog. A good seed? What the hell? And the depositor comments there something like: “You know, I can see that you are pretty angry. I have to admit that I don’t exactly understand completely- but I know how it feels to be angry and it sucks. I send you big hugs.”

This is completely irrational, of course. Putting good seeds on bad pages?

But it’s being the change- and it is made a LOT more possible with the seeds.

Now, to be personal, I don’t really argue one way or the other. I can make kind comments as I so choose, regardless. I will refrain from making negative comments, regardless. I will try to address other people’s feelings without either affirming or denying validity to them- by giving voice to the real root of those feelings. Simply being aware of em, really. And if people are downright rude? I’ll just be not-rude. (Or try, anyway.)

BUT. There are good arguments on both sides. The real question boils down to: are we READY, as a community, to have such responsibility given manifest form in a definite process?

This is a damned hard question. To give responsibility is to give the opportunity to rise to it. But to give responsibility is to allow failure.

There are possibly medium paths. Like a trial run, for example. Or go over to poetry.com and watch the system in action for awhile.

But I’ve already written too much here. The most important part - and this is MY feelings on the matter - is to recognize that we are all on the same side here. No one is out to ‘just make money’. And the angry voices aren’t angry because they are jerks. We all want what’s best but because of our different life-experiences, we have different ideas about what is going to be beneficial. If we can all recognize that- then it won’t matter what tools we are given anyway. We will all see that we are not the ‘right ones’, but rather voices within a whole. A temple of humanity.

Anyway, hope this helps. I sure adore all of ya.

David Williams

I like this idea. I just want to point out that I haven't read through all the previous comments (short on time) but my take on it is It brings accountability into the spiritual realm. Because sometimes it is easy to think spiritually without acting spiritually. This to me feels like an invitation to walk the talk. I like it. 
Namaste,Marn

So how does this work?

I will speculate on things; but, i try to be very clear when it is my imagination, not my actual observation in support, which is to say I try to experiment and gain some first hand observations before I point to the ball sailing over the back wall when in fact the pitch hasn't been thrown.

I have given away a healthy portion of my seeds. I have posted two blog entries and this is my third, very even-handed and respectful post in this thread. So far, my Seed count remains equal to what I started with minus what I have given away. Hmmm.

To be sure, I liked giving seeds away - a gesture of love, thanks or indication of Good Stuff is in fact, a satisfying act. Yes, it could be accomplished in more meaningful ways - a Shout out, a personal message, even a phone call? But sending goods seeds to relative strangers about whom my impressions are formed based on their contributions at Zaadz is fine and dandy.

I have not given out any bad seeds and in fact, haven't come across that option - at least not on member profiles where I have given my seeds to others. Maybe I should seek out some particularly inflammatory content just to see how giving bad seeds might work?

One thing though, based on my first hand experience, Shout outs, blog entries and responses here so far have not resulted in my getting any seeds back.

Somehow I have not yet experienced what Seona said above: “And the more seeds you gain (by posting and participating) the more seeds you can give away. It's a pretty abundant system.”

Should I continue my mirthful disposal of good seeds to deserving folks until I am seedless (egad, sounds bad, doesn't it)?

Well, it looked liked in the beginning it didn't bother me. But from people's feedback, if we're to follow 'Democracy of the Majority' I'm sure the zaadz moderators are paying attention. In any case, it looked like zaadz was moving on well before. Some people would be very busy in some periods and then zaadz-active in others.
Therefore, it would look inappropriate finding negative stuff on someone's page.

In any case, I can just keep on giving seeds to someone who is not even active! And would that be fair to the more active guys who may not get the same and are not in my friends' network (where they could may be receive for no work done)?

For example, what's the maximum number of seeds one would get?
…and when one is getting seeds deducted, do they go to negatives so that when theyt start gaining they gain towards the positive end (zero onwards)?

Siona, let's be sincere on this. Developments are good but let's look at people's reactions.

Thank you very much Siona and the zaadz team. Let's do a MAJORITY DEMOCRACY here.

Well, it looked like in the beginning it didn't bother me whether the 'Seeds' stuff continued or not. But from people's feedback, if we're to follow 'Democracy of the Majority' I'm sure the zaadz moderators are paying attention. In any case, it looked like zaadz was moving on well before. Some people would be very busy in some periods and then zaadz-active in others.
Therefore, it would look inappropriate finding negative stuff on someone's page.

In any case, I can just keep on giving seeds to someone who is not even active! And would that be fair to the more active guys who may not get the same and are not in my friends' network (where they could may be receive for no work done)?

For example, what's the maximum number of seeds one would get?
…and when one is getting seeds deducted, do they go to negatives so that when theyt start gaining they gain towards the positive end (zero onwards)?

Siona, let's be sincere on this. Developments are good but let's look at people's reactions.

Thank you very much Siona and the zaadz team. Let's do a MAJORITY DEMOCRACY here.

Whoaaaaaaaaaa!
Such a big Kaffuffle about some tiny dots–something that doesn't even exist except as an idea.    After a couple days have passed now, I can personally accept the idea of seeds. 

Three Buddhist principles helped me decide:
1.  Right Intention
2.  Right Understanding
2.  Generosity

The more good I can contribute, the more seeds I can get to pass on to others to say “thank you”.   Since I can't keep seeds for myself and can only give them away to my current  and future friends,  I have nothing personal to gain.   From what I can see and understand, no one knows how many seeds YOU  have at any time, unless you tell them.  No one knows who gave seeds to whom unless you tell them. You can ignore the seeds.
They don't exist unless YOU give them life.

Everyone breeeeeeeeeathe……..
Breathe in “love”
Breathe out “peace”
namaste,
mimi

Hello everyone! Happy Friday…….

I was wondering if the term “losing” seeds is sort of scaring people. I too thought at first that someone could have seeds taken from them or have someone give you a negative seed. But if it's just “giving them away” which is pretty cool, then that sounds more fun.

It reminds me of something from the lovely and talented Wookiefoot……at least I think they wrote it:

so grab the people that you love they will be your clearest mirror
and see the shadow moving in the corner of your eye
and catch those shadows moving in the corner of your eye
'cause a hundred years from now all the people will be new
so there's really only one important thing for us to do
and it's not from the thoughts of the things that you can't
but the echo from a tiny little seed that you plant

I don't like it.  Please get rid of it. 

It's completely arbitrary.  It's obviously provoking feelings of resentment and inferiority.  I don't understand how it works or why it's needed.  The stated goals of giving appreciation and/or flagging bad content can be accomplished in other ways.

I don't want the responsibility of monitoring Zaadz.  That's the admin's job.  That's what they get paid to do, isn't it?   Why is this being imposed on us?

This is supposed to be empowering for me?  I don't doubt this was done with the very best of intentions, but I don't feel empowered.  I feel irritated and disappointed and puzzled.  There is huge “ick” factor here and I don't know exactly why.   

Zaadz used to be a place where I felt I could freely explore the creativity of myself and others, but when I go to my home page now, I feel micromanaged, tracked and graded.  How many views?  What activities have been engaged in?  How many seeds?  How many friends?  How many comments?  How many boxes of Girl Scout Cookies did I sell?  Sheesh.

Is this really worth all our time and energy?  Can't we just keep it simple, hold the space? 

But ultimately, the bottom line for me is, with the seed system we are no longer equal.  Or at least, we no longer appear equal.  Perhaps it was an illusion, but it was comforting, that feeling of equality.  It was one of the things I liked best about Zaadz.  

Please, please get rid of it. 

Actually I should correct myself…..I don't know what this means:

“You can also spend these seeds on negative feedback”….I don't see that as an option, I'll look again……

I could even understand flagging stuff that may be say, rated R or basically for adults…..

here's the only part I could definately say that I would disagree:

“Content with enough negative feedback will be hidden”

I would say not to do that, unless it's of course spam or clogging or really really foul, but I'm always in the camp that says, let the reader decide, let the listener decide. It's like Howard Stern or Don Imus or bad TV…….you don't like it? Hit the off switch.

jt

I am sadden by the fact that something that is suppose to help the community, is also tearing it apart. This morning, one of my friends left..a few minutes ago another friend posted in their blog that they are leaving.

It is a sad day.

I for one hope nobody leaves. This place isn't about seeds it's about all the things you all liked to begin with. Why not just see what happens? Time will tell. You don't even have to participate in the thing really, and if anyone gets censored just because they're “not liked” or because of some petty feud or something, then I'm sure people could justify their leaving, but I don't think it will go down like that……

I'll back off from this thread. I hope whatever happens it all works out.

This is a strain it is. I appreciate the thought and effort that Jake and the Zaadz team has gone to.

I don’t care for the new system. I enjoyed Zaadz the way it was before. There was what seemed to be a level playing field––with no distractions for us, the members, to be forced into a system of implementing any form of grading and assessing other than our direct comments left, as contributions, on the Pods (or blogs) as we felt were relevant. Personally I don’t want to be involved in the system you’ve contrived. This is my preference. That doesn’t mean, as another pointed out, that I’m rebelling or caustically commenting and immediately running off. But in this well intentioned democratic, voice-of-the-people, installation of this Seed System, it does not appear to be being received very well.

I’m not concerned emotionally with the concept of being judged as some have pointed out may be happening among some members. However, the system employs designs which are intentioned to remove a person’s voice––if not altogether, in significant and sufficient measure so as to make this site very unappetizing. I don’t care for (as I understand it now) people not having an ability to post (if this is a correct interpretation); their comments disappearing (being ”folded”) to certain sects of Zaadz without having to click on their semi-hidden (“folded”) contribution; nor for their profiles to be hidden to those same certain sects (“non-members”).

I have enjoyed the open forum, spontaneity, vitality and intelligence––wisdom––in which all of our dialogues have emerged and developed. I enjoy the constellation of divergent thought––and I really dislike the thought of my access to any material being expunged because it wasn’t sufficiently popular, even by democratic opinion. And I don’t wish for my exposure to be limited for any reason either––unless the Zaadz administration finds it truly inappropriate. Prior to the implementation of The Seed System, to my knowledge no one received any kind of assessment, elevation or relegation––or “folding,” unless it was directly commented upon on the blog, or in a private email with another Zaadz member, or if their comment or profile was thought sufficiently inappropriate that the administration removed it or their profile. We already have a means for finding the ”Latest” and ”Most Popular” Pod discussions on the Pods home page. This already promotes, through a natural order, what was hot––through being good, appreciated, controversial or important.

We had what I call free speech in a simple straight forward form. I enjoyed Zaadz the way it was. I don’t want to be burdened with or affected by this system of elevation and/or relegation, no matter how ingenious and well intentioned it may be. It in itself is not popular, which is self-evident and stands on its own. Please turn off the Hal 9000. I remember being invited to Zaadz, with Zaadz’ initiatory concept of being offered the Red Pill as Neo swallowed in The Matrix––I like the unrestrained, truth-in-the-raw old paradigm, without any user-imposed filters.

Truly with love and respect to all.

Well said Tony!

I thought no member was forced on the community apart from simple invitation or link by another friend and simple willingness to SIGN UP!
The assessment, whether some people support it or not means denying people freedom of participation, and instead of being out (for some commitments) some time while not active on zaadz, they deregister!

These are people who always have great ideas but with breakoffs.
I thought that's why the zaadz community is BIG. The absence of one member does not jeopardise the activities of the community…we have a large sample space.

Let no one be discourages LADIES and GENTLEMEN. The zaadz team is gonna remove all this stuff. Ok.

hmmmmm….

My father-in-law , LT, used to say in his Alabama drawl , “In a hundred years, no will give a damn”.   Seems to fit this  “seeds” business.  All this energy being wasted…

SAY WHAT YOU WANT   - vent, encourage, discourage,  and then –

DO AS YOU PLEASE - participate, don't participate, stay, go.

You have choices.  So does everyone else.  Cool it if some  don't agree with you.
You are being heard here. The seeds thing will sort itself out and live, or die a natural death. . Nothing is permanent. You know that….

peace,
mimi

I think one of the aspects that worries me, and it seems others, is this idea that those with no seeds will be silenced.  What if I give them all away?  Am I then silenced until someone takes pity on me and will they even be able to give me more?  I take the perspective that we are each individuations of the whole that is Zaadz.  To silence or cut me off from any member here is like disowning a part of myself.  Either one is a member or not.  If it is so bad, and I can understand where it is not desireable to keep a total “trouble-maker”, or is it?  You see, this is a very sticky question because real, serious growth can come from such experiences.  That is what most of us are here for, it is because we are interested in expanding our awareness, reaching further with our consciousness, than may be the norm in the outside world.

So, even more than rating “popularity” which I consider divisive and I here do argue with Siona that “judging” is not a productive activity and am insulted by the suggestion it is shirking one's responsibility to the community, as a pod cultivator, I am very much acquainted with the level of commitment it takes to keep such going.  I am seriously commited to Zaadz overall.

Having seeds will not end nor increase my participation and I continue to doubt that it is really a good thing.

I think one of the aspects that worries me, and it seems others, is this idea that those with no seeds will be silenced.  What if I give them all away?  Am I then silenced until someone takes pity on me and will they even be able to give me more?  I take the perspective that we are each individuations of the whole that is Zaadz.  To silence or cut me off from any member here is like disowning a part of myself.  Either one is a member or not.  If it is so bad, and I can understand where it is not desireable to keep a total “trouble-maker”, or is it?  You see, this is a very sticky question because real, serious growth can come from such experiences.  That is what most of us are here for, it is because we are interested in expanding our awareness, reaching further with our consciousness, than may be the norm in the outside world.

So, even more than rating “popularity” which I consider divisive and I here do argue with Siona that “judging” is not a productive activity and am insulted by the suggestion it is shirking one's responsibility to the community, as a pod cultivator, I am very much acquainted with the level of commitment it takes to keep such going.  I am seriously commited to Zaadz overall.

Having seeds will not end nor increase my participation and I continue to doubt that it is really a good thing.

If I may quote you Siona…

“And now we're attempting to give you a voice in those decisions, and to give you, the community, some of that responsibility…”

The key word here is “NOW”…The community should have had the voice prior. 

That is my “beef” with this whole seed issue. I don't give a “hill of beans” about the seeds or their purpose.

“Having seeds will not end nor increase my participation and I continue to doubt that it…”

thanks, debyem. 
This is my favourite comment so far, probably because it's sensible, Middle Way.

namaste,
mimi

I got long winded, so I posted my comments here on my blog.
Blessings,
Lauren

Zaadz is now becoming like the world as it is rather than what it may be.
The

Very well said, Raymond.

I've been away from this discussion the last couple of days…work kept me busy and it also gave me some perspective on this topic.  I still do not resonate with it although I feel I uderstand it.  Siona, thank you for your reply to my comment.  As I metioned I made the comment after reading only half the replies.  After commenting I went back and continued reading and I do believe that everyone's heart was in the right place.  My “bad seed” comment was in reference to Dave's humorous comment about wanting to collect “bad seeds.”  ITtstruck me as funny and I ran with it a little bit.  My opinions on this are along the same lines as friendstacy  and debyem so I won't be redundant, will just say “yeah, what they said.”

On another tangent, MySpace has an option where you can give blog posts “kudos.” That seems to work really well. The “I Like It” option reminds me of that. And there is nothing wrong with being able to flag inappropriate content. I think if the whole “banking of seeds” component went away this could work.  Just some Sunday morning thoughts. Hopefully the coffee has hit me and this makes any kind of sense!

Namaste,

Mimi

debyemm, please show me the part where people with no seeds are silenced.  I've given mine away and I'm still here - or at least I think I'm still here - OH, NO, I'm fading a w  a  y … .  (  :

Earon,

Your question had me really scrambling and I'm not the only one who remembers the original info on the system and it does seem that “they” have altered the posts for the fluidity of the situation has caused changes. 

There still seems to be some dispute about whether the term bad seed was actually ever a part of it but negative feedback was but I think the term came up with Jake and maybe Siona and there are just too many Zaadzsters who remember seeing that term.  What has been saved, which I found thanks to Sandra, in the Think Tank discussion about Bad Seeds is this -

If someone's Reputation Score falls gets too low, all content they've posted in public areas is “folded”-hidden from users who aren't logged in, and minimized to title only unless clicked by members. Also, their profile becomes visible only to community members.

If someone's Score really gets bad, they lose the ability to post new content to public areas on the site; content posted on their blog, albums, and so on, is excluded from new/hot/search, friends' blogs and notifications. They can still edit any content they they've already created, however, and can reply to messages but not send new ones. And they'll lose your seeds available, so they cannot give feedback.

Essentially, they'll lose their voice.

Obviously, silencing members is a very serious consideration and I think is at the root of most of the upset.  OK, that and just applying subjective judgments to people in general.  I am growing weary of the discussion, though I think it important and still think “rating” people is not the egalitarian atmosphere we want at Zaadz, as I have written in my own personal blog about the Seeds.  I also noted some points today in my Living Metaphysics pod as well.  The system simply goes against my own PERSONAL spiritual philosophy, but I'm living with it, I think its a done deal and I'm giving them away here and there, because some members might care about whether they have them, though I wish mine could just go away without silencing my voice - if that still is part of the system - which it may not be anymore.

There simply are not enough hours in my day to keep up with ALL the discussion surrounding the Seed System (or Trust System or whatever you want to call it system) that exists.  I have never the less tried to keep somewhat informed.

In C4Chaos discussion How to & FAQs, he says -

4) Content with enough negative feedback will be hidden.

That is a pretty vague statement.

I hope this answers some of your questions.  But I'm NOT the expert on the SEED system, I'm just a caring Zaadzster who liked being no better and no worse than ANYONE else here and doesn't relish whatever “rating” is going to be tacked on to me and can NEVER encompass ALL that I am.

Deborah

Hi Deborah,

I agree with you that some of the verbiage has changed as the conversation has moved along.  As I said earlier, I have no problem with flagging inappropriate content. I do disagree with the concept of content being removed because it collected seeds from people disagreeing with content.  I may disagree with what someone writes but that does not make their offerings wrong. 

Have a great day,

Mimi

wow, they did change their original posts, after how many comments?
Siona sad the system works by giving members and/or the content they post either good seeds, if you like it, or bad seeds, if you don't.  She said that anyone whose rating fell below a certain point would be folded and their contributions to zaadz harder to find until no longer visible to others.  She made the direct threat that if your rating fell below a certain level (and nobody knows what that is except admin) that, and I quote, “YOUR VOICE WILL BE SILENCED”

I am amazed that with all that is happening in the world this subject has recieved so much comment. In Bangladesh people have been hit by a cyclone and have lost everything, aid is not getting to them easily. The UN has given warning about the dire consequences of Global Warming if we fail to act now and drastically reduce emissions. The dollar is falling house prices are dropping. Species are declining rapidly. Crops are failing or reduced, bee pollinators are dying off.  The ice shelf is melting, the gulf stream is changing,  the jet stream has changed course and is changing climate. What are we all discussing? Virtual Seeds? I thought we were all spiritually minded responsible compassionate adults?

Earon; debyemm.

Two things. There were never such thing as 'bad seeds'; seeds were neutral, and could be 'spent' on positive (an “I liked it!”) or negative (“flag for review”) feedback. I can see where 'bad seed' would become a short-hand for negative feedback, but this wouldn't be accurate and also has the unfortunate allusion to a person who is 'intrinsically bad.' Not a good choice of language–no question there.

You can give away all your seeds and still post; the mere process of doing so is what lends you more, and again, the seeds are meant to encourage an attitude of abundance and joy in giving… as your bank will always replenish.

That is, it will always replenish unless you've been posting patently offensive or abusive content (and even this isn't a 'forever' thing). The point of the reputation score had been so that if someone had continually posted content that needed to be 'folded' (and again, the only reason this was done was so that people wouldn't say, stumble across pornography or blatantly offensive–homophobic, let's say–content; this was a means of allowing people to continue to speak freely if they so chose, but making it so that others browsing through the site would have to take an extra step to be exposed to it), that person's feedback wouldn't count so strongly. (Folded content, again, just means that you couldn't see it by a cursory browse through the site; you'd have to click the title to open it.)

I hope I'm explaining that okay.

No one was going to be 'silenced' in the sense that their posts would no longer be visible or that their words no longer showed up. It was more that if other members continually found someone's posts disturbing and abusive, that person's feedback would have less of an impact than someone who had been given a great deal of 'thank yous' and who'd been appreciated for their generosity or contributions. It was a means of enhancing the 'voices' (feedback) of quieter and respectful Zaadzsters–not giving them ultimate say, certainly, but just providing an extra boost to those who don't revert to 'shouting.'

And I can completely understand the concern that some of you might have about the fact that you do express, and continue to express, frequently 'unpopular' or hard-to-stomach opinions, and that this system might mean that these opinions are flagged! I think the existing community, though, is wise enough not to go about abusing the seeds in this way. By weighting the feedback of this existing group more strongly, we thought we could help make sure that newcomers who didn't “get” the values we hold wouldn't take over in some more mobbish fashion.

Does that make sense? Again, I'm trying to be clear, and also realize that this is a bit of a moot point, as, for the time being, we've taken away the 'negative feedback' option. I just wanted to clarify a bit the original goal.

And Deborah: for the record, we do, definitely, apply subjective judgment to members here already. I removed a new member this morning who was using their photo section to host hard-core pornography. (And trust me; I'm tolerant, but some things are really not meant to be on this site. :) I'm sure that person was as intrinsically good as any of us, and their being booted had no bearing on their worth as a human being, but if you can't abide by the terms of use, I really have no qualms about imposing a little not-quite-egalitarian standards.

To community, and process, and discussion, and the fact that no seed system we'd ever, ever design with would quell dialog like this…

Siona

PS. friendstacy. I almost don't want to respond to your last note, because it sorely misrepresents the original description (which Sandra has placed here), but I do want to apologize, wholly, for the “your voice will be silenced” thing. That was a shoddy way of expressing that what I hope the note above clarified.

Hello, Deborah:
I love and respect your compassion and caring for this community!  Amazing.  And thank you so much for your thoughtful response.  I just wanted to point out that what you and I are probably both concerned about is not the number of seeds in our “bank,” but on the larger issue of the “Reputation Score.”  This is a separate issue, it seems to me, so I wouldn't want to oppose changes that are reasonable just because I don't like the manner or language in which they were introduced.

Ultimately, the “reputation score” could be used to weed out spammers and possibly tone down some flamers, which would be okay with me.  But it could possibly, potentially be used to silence responsible critics and those with views who are unpopular, and that is why I'd like some explanation of how the “reputation score” will work - and what the zaadz team guidelines are.  Does Zaadz promise that responsible critics (who may be annoying but don't violate terms of service) of policies or products or books or concepts will never be targeted for silencing?  What are OUR rights as citizens of Zaadz?  Where is the Zaadz Magna Carta?

We are all aware that anyone on an online system can be silenced, directly, indirectly, or even inadvertently, by an admin person or program code.  And there are valid concerns about this.  However, we have no reason to assume that the Zaadz team is trying to pull a fast one on us.  The inartful, perhaps niaive introduction of the seed program predictably caused quite a stir - and raised concerns about motivation among many.  On the other hand, it was done honestly and openly, without manipulation, with sincere intentions to help the Zaadz community.  For me, the response from Zaadz has been thoughtful and reassuring.  Now, we can move on to the next phase - accepting and learning from the seed system - while probing a bit more on the specifics of the guidelines that will address our deeper concerns regarding the “reputation score.”

Peace,

Earon

Siona, thanks so much for your explanations.  I wrote my immediately previous posting before receiving your - but sense that I got your message anyway.  This is good.  I'm seeing a great outcome to this situation.

Peace,

Earon

Siona,

Thank you for the time you spent in crafting such a thoughtful and personal response to Earon and myself.

Earon, I thank you for your thoughtful response because you are so correct that we do NOT care about seeds in our bank.  And I think we understand and agree about the fact that some circumstances require action.  Earon and I also share concerns about a reputation score but not about the need described to police the community and I am heartened by how clearly you, representing the Team, understand how it is the variety of voices and discourse that make us - Zaadz - what we are.  

Siona, your response confirmed for me what my gut instinct has been telling me was driving the seed thing.   This is a tool that management needs, not really a tool that the community needs, except by extension to maintain the quality of our site, which I believe does concern most of us. 

My dear friend Zepher brought up all the “bigger” issues that ought to have our attention, but in this case, I think she does miss the point.  We can do very little as people about these big issues, we can't stop alot of the suffering that occurs in the world.  It is our voices here at Zaadz that can do something.  We can do alot about our own selves and that is what alot of us are doing here at Zaadz in the first place.  By extension, this community is about our voices and therefore, the issues of some being silenced or not allowed to express less popular points of view, which really do need to be heard, has been important to me and Earon.

I don't think I, or so many others, imagined the “bad seeds” existing in some comment or post at the beginning of all this.  You almost can't have seeds with positive and negative connotations without that popping in from somewhere.  I know that I read that term in at least some of the early responses from team members, Jake mentions it in his blog as one of his “mistakes”.  So, it is out there, more than a Zaadz Urban Legend I think, but that really isn't what concerns me.  I don't really care what it is called, many are not bothered by previous interpretations of the word and recognize in the concept constructive criticism or the pointing out of alternate viewpoints.

At the moment, I find spreading the darn seeds around meaningless and hollow but I'm doing it.  I'm doing it because it has been made part of the community and because they are there.  They are time consuming and bothersome and the one giving has no feeling of any meaning, not even the receiver knows where they come from.  I really wish it would just go away.  It wastes my time with extra delays of “loading” them into the one receiving, etc.

I really don't see that they do what you mean them to.  I'm certainly not encouraged in anyway by them.  They aren't real.  My words mean more than some virtual widget flying around.  Sorry to have to be so blunt but I can't shake it.  I'll play but I hate it and so it rubs me negatively.  But I don't want to see huge numbers there in my bank because I don't want them at all in the first place.  I feel coerced to participate.  I don't like that.  Sorry.  I wish I could be more positivie but I'm just not into the “you are better than you” mentality - period.  It goes entirely against my beliefs and so it affects my integrity.  I feel caught in a vise.  Don't give them away they skyrocket, give them away and I'm participating in what for me is a disagreeable pantomine.  I can't win on this one, so I'll try to be geniune in distributing them and cope with it.

I've seen adult material.  I think it's tacky but I am beyond offending.  It just is what it is, a reflection of who issues it.  To me, no more or less than that.  So, folding that, nope, I don't have a problem really.   Thanks for removing the hard-core pornography.  There are places for that and it isn't here, in my opinion.  I'm not at all interested in seeing it.  I have no problem with people who totally don't fit being removed and that can include me, if it ever comes to that but I certainly hope not and can't imagine it - unless this place changes in ways so totally radical, I no longer fit.

Sorry, this became what probably should have been private email or perhaps not.  Someone will probably benefit and that is why we're having this 3 way conversation publicly.

The only thing I really have a problem with is this “rating” of people.  I really can't imagine a mob of people taking over the site but all things imaginable are always possible.  I'm not having a problem with the blog thing - though it is like double work because you can't say “I like it” and post a comment all in one action.  I doubt I'll ever “flag for review” but never say never is part of my belief system.

I see that this was a huge amount of change and probably should have been presented more incrementally and with a lot more forethought.  Evolution is constant.  Here's to “an evolving Zaadz”.  And I'll share your toast as well - “to community, and process, and discussion, and the fact that no seed system we'd ever, ever design would quell dialog like this…” while some question spending the time on it, it is priceless and worthwhile.  I've seen some amazing things including healing frequencies happening through all of this discussion.

Deborah

I posted most of this in Jake's bog “disenchanted” today but I thought it important to put it here as well so that it can reach who ever might be interested but would have missed it otherwise.  I want to be clear about the points I have been trying to make.  I do not accuse Siona of malicious intent.  I do not even know if this Seed or Trust system was her idea or the Team's idea.  In fact, the point I am trying to make has little to do with intent, though I will address possible intents.

First, revenue - not greed.  While this site may seem to exist in thin air, I do not think it can exist without financial support.  I do not doubt that alot of consideration is given to who is allowed to advertise and how they are allowed to advertise, both to maintain the tone and quality of the community and due to the sophistication of the audience here and its sensibilities.  I am a business person and understand such realities.  That the data you may collect - either with or without our knowledge - could be used for such purposes is the decision of the site's owner and its managment and that is your right in exchange for providing this community space.

Second, management of members and content.  This is also the right of the site's owner and management.  It is only the right of the community in the sense that, if it is too unfair or the application of such is too heavy, the community would either stagnate or dissipate in response.  I completely accept and believe in the right of management to decline some people for membership and control some kinds of content on the site, for the overall good and again quality and tone of the community.  I am not recommending here a NO HOLDS BARRED kind of free-for-all freedom of expression here.

Now, I want to get real myself about why I object and where my objections are of concern to me.  I came to Zaadz because they advertised on the back of the Science of Mind magazine.  Science of Mind is a metaphysical philosophy described by a man named Ernest Holmes.  The month that I began my Living Metaphysics pod, the founder of Zaadz - Brian Johnson - was featured in the magazine and  he described the impact that philosophy had on his thinking.  Therefore, it is my belief that, as the creator of this site, he drew here a certain quality of individual that is not the norm or average in the world at large but something a little more spiritually mature than that.

That is why I am concerned about and object to the seeds.  For one thing, I do not need them to appreciate a person or a comment - this is just automating the ability to categorize.  I find them time consuming and bothersome but I will do whatever with them, if they continue to exist.  I will admit that yesterday, in my sacred place, I gathered them up, threw them into the wind and hope they vanished but if they did not, if they continue to circulate around, I will participate, even though I personally do not want to.  Only because I am a member of the community.

I am going to try one more analogy because I do not believe it is too late to affect the visibility and usage of the system created by Jake's code.  Imagine a pool of nutritious, stimulating and growth encouraging matter.  Making up this pool is 100,000 organisms.  They interact with each other however they may chose to do, consume whatever they want to consume, throw up anything that doesn't agree with them and thrive.  They thrive so well that they achieve a kind of exponential critical mass and engender a cultural shift that is a gentle and positive event.  This is the potential that exists in Zaadz and has existed up until the point you wrote the code and this system was established for WHATEVER reasons you and the Team decided to do it.

Now, imagine this same pool of organisms - there are walls, some nutrients necessary for that exponential growth are removed for the good of the organisms by some all knowing keeper who has determined that they know best what all 100,000 of them need and now “currents” have been established in the pool, so that the organisms are encouraged to go only in certain directions and are no longer totally free in their interactions.  Large quantities of organisms pool up in certain locations and are given specialized attention, while others languish in backwaters and receive none.  This is what I believe the system, as I understand it, will accomplish.  I am not saying that was the intent, I am saying that is where I sense it will go.  This is not a paranoid imagining, this is the wisdom and experience of my life and being trying to speak to you, for whatever it is worth and I recognize that it may not be worth much at all in the end.

I want to be utterly clear about this.  I can exist as a lion in a community of sheep.  I even promise not to eat any.  Sheep are my friends (to borrow a phrase from Finding Nemo).  So, if this is not the spiritually, high-minded community of lions that I believe Brian Johnson envisioned but for whatever reasons, even if those reasons are for management or revenue or the overall inclination of the community, there is a need to homogenize what is here by telling everyone here what is of value - I will still be able to flow around it by my own inner guidance, to what I need and want to learn, and ignore any recommendations about where I should go and what I should be interested in and who I should associate with.  I will simply ignore that part of it.  The system does not impact my ability to do so, but I remain concerned that given such “guidance”, through the software application as it has been presented to us, those lions who have been attracted here, who could have achieved a new level of being, may miss that opportunity, chasing the popularity ideal that this software application encourages.  It is my personal belief that this community will not achieve the potential that existed immediately before this was implemented.

I end this discussion with this disclaimer.  Everything I have said here is my personal opinion and really does not matter one bit, unless the reader of it understands and believes that what I've written is important to them personally as well.

Wishing you all the best, however you find that -

Deborah